Valves vs modelling musings..

guitarcookie1 · April 2023

For the last 3-4 years I’ve been using modellers - they sound great through headphones & I don’t disturb anyone at home..

I’ve had - Helix LT (too big), HX Stomp (on my third now, I sold them, they didn’t break), Boss GX100 & Boss IR200.

Can’t afford Kemper or Fractal.

The IR200 for amps and the Stomp for fx is the best combination have tried (no dsp issues, no lack-of-footswitch issues, each unit doing what it does best, imo).

Now, live with our weekly jam group I’ve never been really happy, and this maybe down to the Headrush FRFR speaker I’ve been using. Harsh top end and kind of ‘sterile’ feeling that is hard to eq out. There maybe better alternatives.

I've always gravitated towards the Vox-type models as they seem to cut through better than Fender-type models which seem to ‘disappear’ when up against against other instruments. We don’t need lots of high gain sounds (Eagles & 60’s pop).

This week I took a punt on a s/h Vox AC15 (which is slightly physically larger than anticipated, who knows how you’d lift/move an AC30..).

First impressions:

It sounds fine at quieter-than-tv volumes at home (the mv works, who knew).

At our jam group, wow. Warm, clean, never ‘lost’ & never ‘harsh’. Just on the normal channel so far.

The non-guitarists in the group don’t hear the difference, & so I assume nor would punters if we ever branch out, but to me there’s a clear improvement.

Does it matter, probably not, but it’s my hobby & it makes me feel good.

So, IR200 for home practice/recording & AC15 for playing out (Stomp for fx in both cases). Best of all worlds, imho..

Winny_Pooh · April 2023

Same here.

Went from 3 amps:
2 loud amps into a Suhr RL for DI recording or into speaker sim for headphones. (Major faff to setup)
a 5 watt for quiet practice.

To:
15watt & 5 watt both with attenuator for regular playing.

Boss gt-1000 core for headphones.

p90fool · April 2023

I agree with you and my feelings on the whys and wherefores are probably well known on here - but actually sometimes it can be that a particular piece of kit just instantly works in a given situation.

I was asked to play electric guitar alongside a group of primarily acoustic country-ish singer songwriters at an event once and was handed an Affinity Tele and a Marshall MG30FX, and that combination was perfect for that moment.
I own some great US-made Fenders and Gibsons and half a dozen decent valve amps and had no reason whatsoever to go and grab any of them, the cheap guitar and transistor amp sat perfectly in the mix and allowed nuanced, dynamic playing.

You could probably, given time, dial in your modeller to do almost exactly the same job as your Vox, but there's not really any point when you can just plug in and play music.

TheBigDipper · April 2023

I'll muse...

I recently found myself pushed back into using a modeller for band sessions. We're just getting started, doing a lot of writing and arranging and learning each others songs. To save the keyboard player from schlepping around a huge amount of heavy kit, we've been playing at his house, using e-drums and plugging into a desk to monitor ourselves through a small PA. So I sourced a GT-1000Core and that sounds surprisingly decent (compared with my experiences with Line 6 and Headrush). It was good to play as a full band but not need earplugs and to be able to hear ourselves without spending too long on setting levels. One byproduct of using the PA is the PreSonus desk he owns can let us make stereo recordings of what is coming through the monitors and also a multitrack of what we are playing. It's been interesting hearing someone else's parts isolated and in detail when you're not actually playing yourself.

I decided to swap over to a full sized GT-1000 rather than take a full pedalboard with the Core on it - and I've sold the Core. The GTk is smaller than a full board, lighter and has enough buttons and an expression pedal.

But I've spent a lot of time trying to dial in presets that sound musical, sound good in the band mix and feel good to me as a player. A lot. And I've spent a lot of time trying to arrange my personal workflow using the modeller so it works well in a band situation. And I'm still not there.

I know how to use pedals and an amp with an electric guitar. I know how to get the sounds I want from the gear. Most of the solutions I've read about to get the same sonic outcome from a modeller seems to be approaching it from a different direction that I'm finding unintuitive. Too many EQ effects before/after drives or amps. Raise the levels here, drop them there. It's a time-consuming learning curve.

And last weekend, the GT-1000 fired up and I couldn't hear it. There was some sort of issue that seemed to be hardware-related. So I took it in to be fixed (not in warranty, secondhand purchase). And I took a Fly Rig v2 to band practice and plugged that in to the PA.

Much better sound and a nicer playing experience. Sat in the mix without any faffing about. I played more and twiddled knobs less. So that has set me back, somewhat.

To make matters worse, the problem in the GT-1000 has turned out to be related to global output settings for the unit. Settings that I haven't touched for weeks. I could hear it on Friday night when I switched it off and couldn't when I turned it on on Saturday morning. So what caused the settings to change? And what if that happens to me at a gig? (I wasn't thinking of using the amp sims at a gig, but was thinking of using it as a compact pedalboard).

So my musings and experiences are probably taking me back to a simpler setup that will be heavier and bulkier, but more pleasing to me, with less faff to make it work. In 2022, I did all of my (relatively few) gigs using a T-Rex Soulmate into a Rivera Chubster.

Anyone want to buy a GT-1000? It might never reset itself again. Or....

FWIW, the tech who looked at my unit said they never got GTks back for repair with hardware faults unless they'd been badly mistreated, and were possibly the best-built modellers available.

digitalscream · April 2023

guitarcookie1 said:

The IR200 for amps and the Stomp for fx is the best combination have tried (no dsp issues, no lack-of-footswitch issues, each unit doing what it does best, imo).

Now, live with our weekly jam group I’ve never been really happy, and this maybe down to the Headrush FRFR speaker I’ve been using. Harsh top end and kind of ‘sterile’ feeling that is hard to eq out. There maybe better alternatives.

This, in my experience, is the root of it. The problem with modelling has (almost) never been the amp modelling, it's the output. IRs are great in a recorded mix, but they suck for most other purposes, particularly live.

That's why, when I was gigging, I ran my Helix gear into a power amp (SD Powerstage 170) and a real guitar cab. It was entirely indistinguishable from a real valve amp, except that it was a) lighter, and b) much easier to use because it didn't have any of the compromises and pedal workarounds that come with using a valve amp.

thomasw88 · April 2023

I used quite alot of modellers over the last few years. Now I don't bother as was spending far too much time fiddling with the damn things, and generally being less happy with them than my other rigs. In the house they sound great but always needed tweaking for band situation.

Nowadays,

I use a Peavey bandit at home for practice. Have helix native for recording at home if needed. Or can hook up my quilter toneblock to an interface.

Live, I have two boards depending upon which band I'm doing , and will use with a valve amp or quilter tone block/ Peavey depending on the gig.

Both boards are fairly similar, ie wah, tuner, 3 drives , boost , Strymon mobius, boss dd500, reverb pedal, and bbe sonic stomp.
I prefer the sounds from both to any modeller.

chrisj1602 · April 2023

I’ve been similar, enjoyed a few units, HX Stomp, Pod Go and Helix LT at home but not a band mix.

I picked up an Orange Rocker 15 and was instantly happier but I recently sold that and started using a Princeton Tone Master instead. This gives me the best of both.

Littlejonny · April 2023

These experiences don’t surprise me - it’s always been the way in my experience. I think modellers work great if you run them into the power section of a decent amp and speaker. Into the PA or a FRFR…not so much: Great at home, but sounds weird in a band. Also, I don’t really buy the whole AC30 model for this, Deluxe Reverb model for that. That’s ok when recording but for live work it’s much more basic…clean, hairy, dirty, fuzzy etc. Boost for solos. Trem, vib, reverb, delay. If you can hear it, then it’s good…but then I’ve never had much money to spend on gear, maybe if I did I would start cork sniffing.

Littlejonny · April 2023

Having said this…loads of brilliant pro bands use modellers straight to PA!

digitalscream · April 2023

Littlejonny said:

Having said this…loads of brilliant pro bands use modellers straight to PA!

There's a reason for that - it's far, far cheaper to transport a modeller and a couple of backup units than it is to fly two or three full stacks around the world. Less risky, too, because high-end modellers can withstand the rigours of transport much more reliably than glass bottles. And, if they all die, it's almost trivial to just grab another one and load your presets on it for exactly the same sounds - which you'll rarely get from two ostensibly identical valve amps.

Put bluntly, for pro bands, reliability and predictability are far more important than tone chasing.

Danny1969 · April 2023

I've done loads of gigs with a modeller straight to a PA but only because there wasn't room in the splitter van for a van and stage volume was being kept to as low as we could get it. It was nowhere near as responsive as my real amp and pretty much devoid of any character but you just get on with it and concentrate on doing your best anyway.
Money wise though it's the best I've earnt and the biggest venues. Listening back to various YT videos people have posted it sounds OK .... I think modellers actually do sound better through larger PA's than they do through pub type setups.

The thing I missed the most is the way a valve amp at volume onstage and a guitar is actually one instrument ..not two separate things like it is at home. Years of experience gives you the ability to use the loop between the 2 in creative and musical ways even with mild amounts of gain.

If I can't use a valve amp then I have a little solid state Fender I like to use. The modelling choice is last for me but I get why other people like them and if nothing else it's good people are at least trying different things.

p90fool · April 2023

Littlejonny said:

Having said this…loads of brilliant pro bands use modellers straight to PA!

And they all have excellent monitoring and the time to tweak presets during full volume/full PA rehearsals.

I suspect a lot of us on here like me have to work with what we have on the fly on stage every weekend, where the natural dynamics of real amps with real knobs still have the edge.

bertie · April 2023

p90fool said:

but actually sometimes it can be that a particular piece of kit just instantly works in a given situation.

QED

/thread

Fiftyshadesofjay · April 2023

I think it’s definitely dependent on the scenario. After touring and gigging with amps and modellers I’ve found (somewhat unsurprisingly) that modellers are best for recording or really big gigs.

If you think about it, on a big stage nobody is hearing the amp, they’re hearing the mic’d up tone only so a modeller makes perfect sense, especially if it’s replacing an iso cab or an amp off to the side. In this case it won’t make much difference.

But for smaller gigs it can be jarring, with half of the bands sound coming straight off the stage with PA support (loud drums and bass for example) and then guitars stuffed through the PA speakers. This is where it doesn’t particularly work and the reason why I’m back to amps. Running a power amp and cab can mitigate this but it’s still not as good as an amp.

Cirrus · April 2023

Agree with a lot of the above points - the difficulty with modellers is the practical aspect of how the sound gets out into the room. As a player an amp is more immediately useable in how it fills a space with sound, and has a much more immediate, simple and gratifying interface in the form of the knobs on the front panel that you can quickly grab and turn, and see from across the room etc. But also as a player, modellers solve a bunch of other practical issues like weight, repeatability, and flexibility. What matters more to you will determine whether you get on with them or not.

digitalscream · April 2023

Cirrus said:

Agree with a lot of the above points - the difficulty with modellers is the practical aspect of how the sound gets out into the room. As a player an amp is more immediately useable in how it fills a space with sound, and has a much more immediate, simple and gratifying interface in the form of the knobs on the front panel that you can quickly grab and turn, and see from across the room etc. But also as a player, modellers solve a bunch of other practical issues like weight, repeatability, and flexibility. What matters more to you will determine whether you get on with them or not.

Personally, for me, that last is the most important thing about modellers, and the reason I'll usually gravitate towards them.

When I've got a modeller set up the way I want, playing a gig is easy - no transition is more than a single stomp, and I know exactly where all the changes are, which frees my mind to actually play, and thus I sound better.

With a valve amp and pedals, I'm constantly thinking about the next transition, trying to get the timing right between the multiple stomps for the smoothest switch from one sound to the next, worrying about the level changes etc etc. That's distracting enough that my playing takes a back seat and I inevitably sound worse.

monquixote · April 2023

My experience suggests it's not the modeller it's the speakers.

Something like a Helix and power amp through a real guitar cab interacts better with the guitar and cuts through the mix than FRFR solutions.

That said I find modellers need a lot of fiddling with and valve amps I often just turn on and they sound how I want with a minor tweak which is much easier for a lazybones like me.

vasselmeyer · April 2023

It's not the modeller, it what you put it through. I think that preamps have been modeled successfully for years, and IRs and mic simulation is excellent when recording. However, playing live you never get the same feel as a "real" amp.

I use a Boss GT-1000 and, as we're playing pubs, we're on in-ears and I go straight to the PA, I'm happy with the sound and the punters don't care. But...when we go to a rehearsal room and I'm not in IEMs, I go into a power amp and then a real cab. I've never been happy with FRFR or just hearing the from the PA with cab and mic emulation.

welshboyo · April 2023

In my experience with the Headrushes, they are great at providing foldback when going direct to FOH or indeed at home for dialling in stuff. They just don’t have the clout for providing enough grunt for backline, whilst loud enough, they just don’t throw enough into a room, you need a PowerAmp and cab for that IMO.

When I have the need to use trad backline etc (dep gigs and the like) I will leave the Headrushes at home and use a real amp just to get that “throw” back.

Roland · April 2023

We’ve all got our positions on this. It’s nice to be able to discuss it with people who play a range of styles and venues. My experience, even in small gigs, is that the sound is better balanced if all instruments go through the PA. However it does need something to fill the space between the speakers. On stage monitors do this very well, but don’t provide the feel of a 4x12 running at 100w. Since I don’t play heavy metal or classic rock this doesn’t worry me.

digitalscream said:

… the most important thing about modellers … no transition is more than a single stomp, and I know exactly where all the changes are, which frees my mind to actually play, and thus I sound better.

That’s how I feel about it. In the words of our friend Drew “it’s about workflow”.

flying_pie · April 2023

My take is that it only really matters if the punters notice that the sound isn't right, or if your tone is miles off. We worry too much about tone as guitarists, particularly from our on stage POV. As to modeller v valves v solid state it's whatever works for you.

We've documented the PA issues but also a narrow beam from a cab providing all the guitar sound can sound great on stage but rubbish out front if half the pub can't hear you properly and then get deafened when trying to order drinks from the bar.

Needs will also vary based around if you have, for example, keyboards to balance and also if you sing. I'm not that fussed about the finer details of my guitar tone on stage as I'm concentrating more on vocals but I use a wireless pack to check my guitar sound out front in soundcheck and can remind myself it sounded okay then.

HAL9000 · April 2023

My take on this. I like a simple amp - fewer controls the better - but with a decent base tone. Then it’s quick and easy to adjust on the fly, and I can concentrate on playing rather than wasting time tweaking.

Littlejonny · April 2023

Fiftyshadesofjay said:

I think it’s definitely dependent on the scenario. After touring and gigging with amps and modellers I’ve found (somewhat unsurprisingly) that modellers are best for recording or really big gigs.

If you think about it, on a big stage nobody is hearing the amp, they’re hearing the mic’d up tone only so a modeller makes perfect sense, especially if it’s replacing an iso cab or an amp off to the side. In this case it won’t make much difference.

But for smaller gigs it can be jarring, with half of the bands sound coming straight off the stage with PA support (loud drums and bass for example) and then guitars stuffed through the PA speakers. This is where it doesn’t particularly work and the reason why I’m back to amps. Running a power amp and cab can mitigate this but it’s still not as good as an amp.

I think this is probably very true…esp the bit about playing big stages.

I don’t play loud, but I prefer my amp on fairly quiet, mic’d into the pa and coming through monitors.

I think modellers can work live with the right monitor system and also a good sound engineer who’s on your side.

When I used to tour with a modeller, it sounded completely different at every venue because of different brands/models of wedge monitor.

As for the one-stomp preset thing @digitalscream ; mentioned is a massive convenience for certain types of gigs/player but you can still do that with an amp, just make sure there’s no speaker sim on the patches.

patches and presets are ok, but I like being able to manipulate the tone as I go, responding to the musicians around me.

digitalscream · April 2023

Littlejonny said:

As for the one-stomp preset thing @digitalscream ; mentioned is a massive convenience for certain types of gigs/player but you can still do that with an amp, just make sure there’s no speaker sim on the patches.

Oh, of course - I spent years, and many ££££, trying to get the perfect setup to do exactly that with an amp-based rig. The problem is that you have to jump through so many hoops to get there, and I found that there were loads of ground loop issues to deal with too (MIDI and amp control lines causing ground loops with their own ground connections), as well as poorly-shielded MIDI controllers etc.

With a modeller, you just get all of that by default.

If I started playing in a band again, I would of course have to go with an amp rig to begin with, because I just don't have a modeller to hand any more, just a few pedals and my old Jet City. If I was gigging on the regular, I'd put the same HX Stomp + Powerstage 170 rig back together, because it sounded perfect and was waaaaay too convenient relative to lugging an amp around (and maintaining it).

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