Digital piano/midi controller advice…

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

Hi all,

I think I’m looking for some advice on two fronts - first, some help on figuring out what kind of thing I want, and second recommendations for actual things…

Context: Before that, though, the context. I’m aiming to write/record guitar/pedal/synth-led melodic things. My setup is guitars, lots of pedals, a couple of amps, a focusrite 2i4 and Reaper daw.

What kind of thing I want: I think what I want is one keyboard unit that I can use as a passable digital piano as well as a midi controller for daw control with some bells and whistles in terms of pads, buttons and knobs. I’d like to be able to do ‘piano practice’ (read: playing/bellowing poor versions of father John Misty songs repeatedly). For the digital piano bit, I’m leaning towards weighted keys [query how that would feel when using it as a midi controller with virtual instruments?].

I’ve been looking at 88-key units because I would use them and I have the space (but obviously more compact is betterer). It doesn’t need to be portable so weight isn’t a huge issue (but, again, lighter is betterer).

Separately, I also want a minilogue xd for analogue poly synth duties, but that will come later.

Actual things: So, if that’s all making sense, which units should I be looking at? The usual suspects (alesis, arturia, m audio, novation, etc.) have offerings there or there abouts. I’m also considering the more traditional digital piano names, like Roland (budget permitting). I could probably go up to £400 but would prefer a well-priced item around £250. Prefer to buy used.

Hoping that’s a clear enough brief to go on but happy to answer any clarifiers and looking forward to hearing any advice and suggestions.

Thanks,

Matt

Snags · April 2023

Do you want to use it as a piano/keyboard in its own right, or will it always be used connected to a DAW?

If the latter, you only really need to get a MIDI keyboard with whatever extra controls you want, as you can get all of your instrument sounds from VSTs in the DAW. It then becomes a question of finding the MIDI keyboard that has the best integration with your DAW of choice. This will also be somewhat cheaper than getting a "proper" keyboard with its own noise-making circuitry.

If you want the keyboard to be useful indepedent of the DAW, then different criteria apply.

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

Snags said:

Do you want to use it as a piano/keyboard in its own right, or will it always be used connected to a DAW?

If the latter, you only really need to get a MIDI keyboard with whatever extra controls you want, as you can get all of your instrument sounds from VSTs in the DAW. It then becomes a question of finding the MIDI keyboard that has the best integration with your DAW of choice. This will also be somewhat cheaper than getting a "proper" keyboard with its own noise-making circuitry.

If you want the keyboard to be useful indepedent of the DAW, then different criteria apply.

Thanks snags, good question. Primarily plugged into a daw. Use as a piano independently would be very occasional and so a nice to have. How would that impact the choices for midi controller?

if only going through daw, are there good free/inexpensive piano vsts?

And which midi keyboards would you say integrate best with reaper?

sweave · April 2023

Daughter has a Necktar Impact LX88+, uses it with Reaper (integration was very straightforward), for piano practice and composition. Very good VFM

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

sweave said:

Daughter has a Necktar Impact LX88+, uses it with Reaper (integration was very straightforward), for piano practice and composition. Very good VFM

Amazing, thank you. I’ll take a look.

thecolourbox · April 2023

I use a Yamaha MX49 for when I can be arsed to plug in a keyboard controller. It's not weighted but it doesn't seem to bother me that much as the trade off is the brilliant midi capabilities and, in my opinion, nice sounds.

I say "nice sounds", to be honest I only really ever use the Concert Grand and one of the electric pianos (I forget which). The other sounds may or may not be good, I really wouldn't know.

It doesn't have built in speakers though, should you want to play it by itself you'll need something to plug it into or headphones.

I have a big Roland frp30x 88 key stage piano for when I play my wedding piano music gigs however it never gets out the case at home as it's big and takes a lot of space and effort to get it set up. Crap internal speakers as well.

In honesty the little Yamaha piano and reverb sounds are much much nicer than the more expensive Roland.

Snags · April 2023

I only need a controller to use with a DAW, and didn't have the space for an 88 key option (and I have access to an acoustic piano for actual piano anyway, if I want to brush up my skills). So I ended up with a Nektar LX49+.

The basic integration with Reaper is very straight forward. If you want to integrate all of the knobs and pads fully then you'll probably need to mess about with midi-mapping it into whichever synth VST(s) you choose to use, but it's not difficult doing that, just a bit tedious

There are plenty of free synth and piano VSTs that are pretty good before you need to drop heavy money on the posher ones.

swiller · April 2023

Ditch the korg and go Alpha juno 2? 61 keys, aftertouch, one of the best analog synths ever made and will make the korg sound like a toy. Good feeling keyboards as well and you wont lose money on it.

Roland · April 2023

@paulmapp8306 ;

thomasw88 · April 2023

If you want a piano like feel then something like yamaha P121/125 or casio/korg/Roland equivalents (FP10/FP30X).

Do you really need 88 keys? I find 73 is fine for 99% of modern music and I play quite lot of a Jazz/Blues as well. the difference in length is quite significant.

if you want a piano like experience then you'll be better off with a digital piano that does have midi capability (most do these days). You can get midi boards fully weighted of course but if you want to sometimes play without hooking up to speakers/PC etc then get a digital piano.

paulmapp8306 · April 2023

OK.

1. A midi controller doesnt thave in build sounds - so youd be relying on a VST instrument fo rPOianos sounds - though there are some very good ones out there that don't cost much (though some do lol).

2. ANY keyboard with midi out (5 pin din or USB) can be used to PLAY a VST instrument. BUT if you want to have knobs/sliders to use as controls for the VST equivilant - a controller may be better at that.

3. There are SOME synths that can output Midi CCs for each knob that can then be mapped to VST controls, though they wont tend to have piano sounds on them - so probably not the right thing.

4. If you want to play Piano, you want weighted action -BUT that isnt a good choice for synths or organ sounds. If your only going to be using pads/strings/atmospheric stuff then its less of a problem, but fast lead or bass lines might be a challenge - though its not impossible (just takes getting used to and stronger fingers lol).

5. Its rare to find weighted boards with less than 88 notes - which are obviously large. 61 is fine for non weighted, in fact 4 octaves 49 notes) is often enough.

SO - you have to make some choices, as no one board will do everything - certainly not at that price point. The choices would primarily be:

1. is piano is the main "action" you'd like, or if synth would get more use (you CAN play piano on synth action, but again its not ideal - as much from an expression POV).

2. how many if any controls you want to mapo to a VST (again you can use keyboard/mouse for sound design and just play it from any bed if thats enough).

3. for piano sounds, do you want them built ion - or are you happy to use a piano VST (and if built in, do you also need build in speakers or are you happy to route to monitors).

Make those choices, and it would narrow down what might suit best for you personally.

As for suggestions for each - difficult at this stage.

For boards with no controls as such - but internal sounds id recommend either:

1. Studio Logic SL for piano action (they do both an 88 built also a compact 73 which may well be enough, cheaper and save some space). This particularly has a nicer piano ac tion than any "digital pianos" in its price range for me.

2. Studio Logic compact for a more synth action (nice semi weighted actually which while not r ahalf way house, is probably the nicest action for synths or dual synth/piano) or compact 2 if you want organs sounds as well.

Ive been really impressed with the SL stuff - and both are in your budget.

It gets more tricky if you want those controls to map for VST instruments.

The Nektar Impact LX61 is decent enough, but no onboard sound s(so your using VST piano again) and the keybed isnt really long enough for piano, nor are the keys weighted. decent enough pure midi controller for VSTs though with some controls to map.

the M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro is arguably the best hammer action controller, with some controls to map. Again, no onboard sounds so your using VST pianos - but thats the compromise. Its also a touch over budget, but used you'd be fine or could find a deal/B stock if your lucky.

I honestly dont know of anything IN BUDGET that has weighted keys and in built piano sounds AND has controls to map for VSTs. there may be something older out there on teh used market, but Im still struggling for options.

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

paulmapp8306 said:

OK.

1. A midi controller doesnt thave in build sounds - so youd be relying on a VST instrument fo rPOianos sounds - though there are some very good ones out there that don't cost much (though some do lol).

2. ANY keyboard with midi out (5 pin din or USB) can be used to PLAY a VST instrument. BUT if you want to have knobs/sliders to use as controls for the VST equivilant - a controller may be better at that.

3. There are SOME synths that can output Midi CCs for each knob that can then be mapped to VST controls, though they wont tend to have piano sounds on them - so probably not the right thing.

4. If you want to play Piano, you want weighted action -BUT that isnt a good choice for synths or organ sounds. If your only going to be using pads/strings/atmospheric stuff then its less of a problem, but fast lead or bass lines might be a challenge - though its not impossible (just takes getting used to and stronger fingers lol).

5. Its rare to find weighted boards with less than 88 notes - which are obviously large. 61 is fine for non weighted, in fact 4 octaves 49 notes) is often enough.

SO - you have to make some choices, as no one board will do everything - certainly not at that price point. The choices would primarily be:

1. is piano is the main "action" you'd like, or if synth would get more use (you CAN play piano on synth action, but again its not ideal - as much from an expression POV).

2. how many if any controls you want to mapo to a VST (again you can use keyboard/mouse for sound design and just play it from any bed if thats enough).

3. for piano sounds, do you want them built ion - or are you happy to use a piano VST (and if built in, do you also need build in speakers or are you happy to route to monitors).

Make those choices, and it would narrow down what might suit best for you personally.

As for suggestions for each - difficult at this stage.

For boards with no controls as such - but internal sounds id recommend either:

1. Studio Logic SL for piano action (they do both an 88 built also a compact 73 which may well be enough, cheaper and save some space). This particularly has a nicer piano ac tion than any "digital pianos" in its price range for me.

2. Studio Logic compact for a more synth action (nice semi weighted actually which while not r ahalf way house, is probably the nicest action for synths or dual synth/piano) or compact 2 if you want organs sounds as well.

Ive been really impressed with the SL stuff - and both are in your budget.

It gets more tricky if you want those controls to map for VST instruments.

The Nektar Impact LX61 is decent enough, but no onboard sound s(so your using VST piano again) and the keybed isnt really long enough for piano, nor are the keys weighted. decent enough pure midi controller for VSTs though with some controls to map.

the M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro is arguably the best hammer action controller, with some controls to map. Again, no onboard sounds so your using VST pianos - but thats the compromise. Its also a touch over budget, but used you'd be fine or could find a deal/B stock if your lucky.

I honestly dont know of anything IN BUDGET that has weighted keys and in built piano sounds AND has controls to map for VSTs. there may be something older out there on teh used market, but Im still struggling for options.

Th is is very helpful, thank you. The SL and m-audio were the ones I’d settled on if I were to go for 88 keys, so that’s reassuring too.

As you say, after more research, I found what I thought I wanted doesn’t exist. So I settled on trying to track down a second hand arturia keylab 61 mk2 or native instruments s61 mk2. If I really want to play “piano”, I’ll get something more appropriate, but primary use will be midi and vsts.

Anything I’m overlooking?

hollywoodrox · April 2023

sweave said:

Daughter has a Necktar Impact LX88+, uses it with Reaper (integration was very straightforward), for piano practice and composition. Very good VFM

I’ve got a nektar too I think mines a 66 key or something though

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

hollywoodrox said:

sweave said:

Daughter has a Necktar Impact LX88+, uses it with Reaper (integration was very straightforward), for piano practice and composition. Very good VFM

I’ve got a nektar too I think mines a 66 key or something though

How do you like it? What’s it by good at? What does it not do that you wish it did?

sweave · April 2023

Have asked my daughter (who is primarily a composer). She really likes the software integration and the ability to manage large orchestral sound banks easily, and finds the semi-weighted keys good enough for composing and for live use (with Mainstage). Only real problem is that sometimes a low note seems not to want to switch off - she thinks it is linked to the pads buttons so could probably be programmed out. Overall v good for the money

Hellsbells87 · April 2023

sweave said:

Have asked my daughter (who is primarily a composer). She really likes the software integration and the ability to manage large orchestral sound banks easily, and finds the semi-weighted keys good enough for composing and for live use (with Mainstage). Only real problem is that sometimes a low note seems not to want to switch off - she thinks it is linked to the pads buttons so could probably be programmed out. Overall v good for the money

Thanks sweave, appreciate it

PolarityMan · April 2023

sweave said:

Daughter has a Necktar Impact LX88+, uses it with Reaper (integration was very straightforward), for piano practice and composition. Very good VFM

I think my controller is one of them too. Have no complaints at all about it, very nice but im far from a piano player

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Digital piano/midi controller advice…

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