Buying blind - now NGD

Mellish · March 2023

@Haych same for me at PMT Nottingham, so I avoid it now.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Haych said:

So we ended up going to Bristol instead of Cardiff and PMT had the guitar I want!

Had a good play and a play on a few others. Their prices were a bit high and they wouldn’t budge - as much as I liked the guitar the sales guy was a bit of a douche bag and couldn’t even raise a smile let alone make me feel like a valued customer, so I left the guitar in the shop.

Sorry, but if I’m about to spend two and a half grand, even if you can’t move on price, make the buyer feel good about the buying experience. Had he been a bit more welcoming and pleasant I’d probably have bought it.

My search continues.

Pleased you found one you like , sounds like a useless sales assistant letting 2.5k walk out the door especially with shops closing down left right and centre. Don’t blame you for walking it’s a lot of money even a couple hundred off or throw in some cool accessories etc and a pleasant manner & they would have had a customer. Looks like you’re not alone either from a post following yours .

at least you have an idea what you like now & have given some a try

Haych · March 2023

I used to work in Cardiff a few years back and my usual lunchtime routine was mooching around the music shops, after a while they all must have thought "here he comes again". Sometimes I'd buy stuff but a lot of the time I'd just look.

I went into PMT Cardiff with another guy from work who also played guitar. I was looking at a Taylor 414CE at the time and the guys in PMT couldn't be more helpful, they were happy to hang around and take all sorts of guitars off the wall for us to try, offer advice and make suggestions; "have you tried such-and-such guitar, hold on, I'll go get it for you".

They were so helpful and they didn't even sell anything in the end, but the next time I went in to try something they were exactly the same, falling over themselves to help. That's kind of what I was expecting but the sales guy made me feel like I was putting him to some extraordinary effort to have a go on three different guitars.

The J45 was really nice, the Martin I tried was more money and not worth it and they had a Chinese Sigma which was less than half the price of the J45 and surprisingly good. They had a room full of Taylors, some of which I'd like to have tried but given the cool and aloof reception it didn't seem like a very inviting thought.

guitarjack66 · March 2023

Haych said:

I used to work in Cardiff a few years back and my usual lunchtime routine was mooching around the music shops, after a while they all must have thought "here he comes again". Sometimes I'd buy stuff but a lot of the time I'd just look.

I went into PMT Cardiff with another guy from work who also played guitar. I was looking at a Taylor 414CE at the time and the guys in PMT couldn't be more helpful, they were happy to hang around and take all sorts of guitars off the wall for us to try, offer advice and make suggestions; "have you tried such-and-such guitar, hold on, I'll go get it for you".

They were so helpful and they didn't even sell anything in the end, but the next time I went in to try something they were exactly the same, falling over themselves to help. That's kind of what I was expecting but the sales guy made me feel like I was putting him to some extraordinary effort to have a go on three different guitars.

The J45 was really nice, the Martin I tried was more money and not worth it and they had a Chinese Sigma which was less than half the price of the J45 and surprisingly good. They had a room full of Taylors, some of which I'd like to have tried but given the cool and aloof reception it didn't seem like a very inviting thought.

Sigmas are very good guitars. I'm just disappointed mine was too big a body size. The fella who bought it off me was a music studio engineer and guitarist and he had always played them. I'd never discount one.

Lestratcaster · March 2023

When I bought my D28 2 years ago I had to do 2 visits to the shop as I wasn't fully set on that or the HD28. It was a very close comparison but for the money I was spending I needed to make sure it was the right one for me.

I literally did 'buy blind' as I brought a mate with me who played both A/B'd and I closed my eyes (well, I turned and faced the other way). A was the D28, and B was the HD28, I actually liked the sound of the HD28 but for feel it was the D28, so I went with that. It just felt good in my hands when I first strummed on it.

I've never ever bought a guitar without trying it first and it will continue despite the lack of local shops round here. I get that if you buy online you have more time to try it in your own environment but you see all sorts of horror stories of damaged guitars in transit and then the return process nightmares so I rather try 3-4 out in a shop and if I don't like any of them then no hassle.

BigPaulie · March 2023

Every single custom built to order guitar is bought "blind".

Soupman · March 2023

@BigPaulie you are so right. I've sometimes wondered what you do if a guitar you've had built doesn't meet expectations when completed.
I suppose you take it home in the hope that it'll play in as your only other options are to sell it on at a possibly significant loss or just learn to live with it.

Tannin · March 2023

BigPaulie said:

Every single custom built to order guitar is bought "blind".

Yes and no. You don't know the individual instrument, that's true, but some or all of the following points apply:

* You have played other guitars made by the same luthier
* He or she has heard you play and knows what you like
* You have discussed what sounds you are looking for

Not the same as playing the actual instrument before you buy, sure, but in some ways it is even better than that.

I like the way Paul (who is building my new baritone) put it when we first discussed ordering a guitar. He promised that the finished instrument would be well made and finished and that "it will have a good sound but you may or may not like the sound". Indeed, what I like is out of his control so I can't ask for fairer than that. Of course, we have discussed what we are aiming for and are both on the same page there, so chances of a happy result are good. (But WTF? You have to take some chances in this life.)

Dave_Mc · March 2023

p90fool said:

I bought my Gibson acoustic blind. I did a lot of research, narrowing it down to the exact model I wanted, figuring that it would work out fine unless it was a real duffer.

I wanted that typical pre-war American sound with a chunky neck and that's exactly what I got. I'm not sure what I would have gained by giving up my very sparse free time and driving all over the country for weeks on end to be honest - I suspect the endless distractions from my target would have made me more likely to buy the wrong guitar, not less.

Anyway, it's a great guitar so it worked!

That's a very good point. People act like you can't go wrong if you try first- of course you can!

I've bought most online, but some with trying first. There aren't that many great shops here in Northern Ireland to try, and I find trying in a shop a bit nerve-wracking anyway. I usually clam up and by about the third guitar basically start to feel I'm outstaying my welcome... granted, some shops are great and put you totally at ease.

I'm not sure is the honest answer... there are pros and cons to both approaches. If there's something really wrong with the guitar or something that you really obviously don't get along with, then trying first will normally weed that out. Something smaller you might not notice in a shop, and if you buy in person you lose the right to return the thing for a refund... But then buying in-person, you can try a bunch and pick the absolute best one, which you can't do online...

thomasross20 · March 2023

Good point from Bertie in the first reply - if it's from a brand that you know you like, there is way less scope for error. But scope for error, there always will be. I know I like Larrivee and the scope for error is small with them, my personal preference.

Imo I prefer paying what I have to in order to be able to try in person. A small discount is appreciated but real value is in a friendly shop who stocks lots of guitars that you can try for as long as it takes.. and I don't mind paying for that instead of trying to save a few hundred quid buying something cheaper, untried, online.

drofluf · March 2023

Tannin said:

BigPaulie said:

Every single custom built to order guitar is bought "blind".

Yes and no. You don't know the individual instrument, that's true, but some or all of the following points apply:

* You have played other guitars made by the same luthier
* He or she has heard you play and knows what you like
* You have discussed what sounds you are looking for

Not the same as playing the actual instrument before you buy, sure, but in some ways it is even better than that.

That's pretty much the approach with Brook you'll be pleased to hear. I spent a morning with them looking round the workshop and playing guitars and discussing what I liked.

ToneControl · March 2023

I've bought mail order used guitars many times - if I am confident I can resell the guitar with little or no loss, I am confident enough. However, always preferable to try before buying - acoustics vary so much.

One of the brands I like the most is Santa Cruz, I tried 10 of them in a shop, and around 4 were very special for me, the others not so much. I think this variability is much more noticeable with acoustics than electrics.

SoundPure in the USA actually offer to send acoustics on trial, which seems a good idea in such a large country.

Tannin · March 2023

Dave_Mc said:

People act like you can't go wrong if you try first- of course you can!

Yes indeed! One really, really valuable technique to reduce the chance of that happening (reduce, not eliminate!) is to play the guitar you have your eye on side-by-side with one you know well. The best way to do this is to take one of your own guitars in with you. I have never yet had anyone object to me doing that. (In fact I'm pretty sure that sales people like it: it demonstrates that I'm not just tyre-kicking and I'm close to making a purchase decision.)

I try to take the guitar I own that is most similar to the one I'm thinking about buying. (There is not really much point in taking your Gibson Hummingbird in if the guitar you are thinking about is an archtop!) If I can't have my own guitar there for some reason, then I ask the sales staff to provide me with something common and familiar to compare the prospective new one to. Again, this is something they are happy to do in my experience.

For example, I really liked a used Lakewood in a local shop a few years back, so I went back with my Angel and played them side-by-side. The Lakewood was still impressive, but the two guitars were at their best playing the same kind of things. Conclusion: I'd be happy to own either one but there wasn't much point in having both. Taking my own guitar in saved me wasting a few thousand dollars on (effectively) something I already had.

Another example: when I was buying my custom shop Maton, I asked for a standard factory Maton to compare the expensive ones to. Even though the Nashville they lent me wasn't exactly like the Maton models I knew best, it was similar enough to be very useful. It gave me a very accurate picture of how similar the custom shop guitars were to the cheaper factory models, and how they differed. I didn't have to guess, I didn't have to somehow try to account for different room acoustics and memories of sounds. I knew. I can't stress enough how useful this technique is. Don't leave home without it!

Mellish · March 2023

Sometimes you're forced into mail order.

As a teenager, I'd got a Bells catalogue. I'd seen the guitar I wanted, but I couldn't get down to London from Lincolnshire. 1965 was a very different world. Luckily the guitar was a cracker.

So I get those who buy blind cos I've been forced to go there. Sometimes you just have to risk it, but I'd still say try first if you can.

GTC · March 2023

There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying blind as long as you do your homework and can afford to take a bit of a risk. You can end up with some very pleasant surprises and learn a heck of a lot in the process.

I'm not convinced that you can properly try out a guitar for an hour or two in a shop although it does give you some idea, particularly of neck feel. I think I really only get to know a guitar after a few months when it has been through one or two string changes and set-up adjustments.ToneControl said:

I've bought mail order used guitars many times - if I am confident I can resell the guitar with little or no loss, I am confident enough. However, always preferable to try before buying - acoustics vary so much.

One of the brands I like the most is Santa Cruz, I tried 10 of them in a shop, and around 4 were very special for me, the others not so much. I think this variability is much more noticeable with acoustics than electrics.

I agree with both of the above points. My most special steel strung acoustic is a left-handed Santa Cruz 000 12 fretter which I bought new blind from GuitarGuitar (nearly £6k) - admittedly with a 30-day refund policy. It was special with the factory fitted Santa Cruz strings but fitting some Thomastik Plectrum 11's (which, despite the name, I find are great for fingerstyle) took it to a whole new level.

Being physically afflicted (left-handed!) buying blind is often the only practical route open for me

Dave_Mc · March 2023

Tannin said:

Dave_Mc said:

People act like you can't go wrong if you try first- of course you can!

Yes indeed! One really, really valuable technique to reduce the chance of that happening (reduce, not eliminate!) is to play the guitar you have your eye on side-by-side with one you know well. The best way to do this is to take one of your own guitars in with you. I have never yet had anyone object to me doing that. (In fact I'm pretty sure that sales people like it: it demonstrates that I'm not just tyre-kicking and I'm close to making a purchase decision.)

I try to take the guitar I own that is most similar to the one I'm thinking about buying. (There is not really much point in taking your Gibson Hummingbird in if the guitar you are thinking about is an archtop!) If I can't have my own guitar there for some reason, then I ask the sales staff to provide me with something common and familiar to compare the prospective new one to. Again, this is something they are happy to do in my experience.

For example, I really liked a used Lakewood in a local shop a few years back, so I went back with my Angel and played them side-by-side. The Lakewood was still impressive, but the two guitars were at their best playing the same kind of things. Conclusion: I'd be happy to own either one but there wasn't much point in having both. Taking my own guitar in saved me wasting a few thousand dollars on (effectively) something I already had.

Another example: when I was buying my custom shop Maton, I asked for a standard factory Maton to compare the expensive ones to. Even though the Nashville they lent me wasn't exactly like the Maton models I knew best, it was similar enough to be very useful. It gave me a very accurate picture of how similar the custom shop guitars were to the cheaper factory models, and how they differed. I didn't have to guess, I didn't have to somehow try to account for different room acoustics and memories of sounds. I knew. I can't stress enough how useful this technique is. Don't leave home without it!

I've never had the guts to take my own guitar with me- I've seen a lot of people online say it's a good idea, I'm sure it is. I'm always so worried that I'll look like a timewaster, and second-guess so much, I sometimes wonder if I make myself look like *more* of a timewaster! For example- I don't like to try too many guitars at the one visit. But maybe people who are genuinely interested in buying would be more likely to try tons of guitars at once!

I have asked to try a similar guitar which I'm used to, though. That's definitely a good idea.

ToneControl said:

I think this variability is much more noticeable with acoustics than electrics.

I suspect that's true, at least based on the limited things I've tried.

GTC said:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying blind as long as you do your homework and can afford to take a bit of a risk. You can end up with some very pleasant surprises and learn a heck of a lot in the process.

I'm not convinced that you can properly try out a guitar for an hour or two in a shop although it does give you some idea, particularly of neck feel. I think I really only get to know a guitar after a few months when it has been through one or two string changes and set-up adjustments.

Agreed. I think basically with a shop (or shops) you get to try a bunch of things, but not always very well. With online you get to try one thing about as well as you can do, but you don't get to compare it to very much- unless you have a load of guitars already!

usedtobe · March 2023

I bought my all solid woods Furch from a shop in Hungary, or somewhere.. I did have a bit of a panic when it came to the first play, but I needn’t have worried, as it turns out..

Haych · March 2023

Well, you will all either be pleased or mortified to learn that I have now bought the guitar without first setting eyes on it or playing it.

It arrived this morning and I will be sending it back, it's a complete dog!

Nah, just kidding, it's lovely and has blown me away in every possible way. It's a gorgeous thing to behold, plays better then any acoustic I've played before and sounds incredible.

I will have to research what to do with the Humidipak things that came with it, I've only ever owned one nice acoustic previously (Martin D1) and nothing was ever said about humidity, nor did it come with any kind of humidifier/dehumidifier.

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in with their comments, advice and suggestions. I don't know if I took a punt and got lucky, or if the quality of modern instruments is just so good at a certain price point that it's hard to buy a bad one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway, here's a quick photo of the guitar.

Image: https://i.postimg.cc/hjvvrR0y/IMG-1468.jpg

Supportact · March 2023

That looks lovely, glad things worked out.

One thing this discussion made me think of - sometimes when I've got a guitar and got it home it's taken a while to get used to it. One in particular I'd played before I bought it, and the tone was good. But it was so different from my other acoustic, I wasn't sure if I liked it. I knew it was a well made guitar so i persevered and only then after a while i started learning how to get the best out of it. And now it's my favourite.

I suppose what I'm saying is sometimes you don't know if you like a guitar immediately, and I feel like it's a good idea to give it a while to bed in before deciding against it.

Dave_Mc · March 2023

Supportact said:

That looks lovely, glad things worked out.

One thing this discussion made me think of - sometimes when I've got a guitar and got it home it's taken a while to get used to it. One in particular I'd played before I bought it, and the tone was good. But it was so different from my other acoustic, I wasn't sure if I liked it. I knew it was a well made guitar so i persevered and only then after a while i started learning how to get the best out of it. And now it's my favourite.

I suppose what I'm saying is sometimes you don't know if you like a guitar immediately, and I feel like it's a good idea to give it a while to bed in before deciding against it.

Agreed, and that's the kind of thing that you might rule out if you try in a shop. You may also run the risk of only buying stuff which is similar to what you already own because that's what you're used to and think you like... but if you persevere you may grow to like the unfamiliar thing even more than what you were initially used to!

Conversely, I strongly suspect if you buy online (at least this is true for me) you're more likely to keep it and only return it if you really hate it or if there's something genuinely wrong with it. So- even though you can give it a really good try- you may still keep something that you might regret. Whereas in a shop you're only likely to buy if you love it.

Again, there are pros and cons to both ways...

@Haych Awesome, that's lovely

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