Modes...which chord?

Hootsmon · March 2023

Am I right in thinking that the preferred chord to solo over with G Mixolydian would be C?

Is C therefore considered the parent scale?

What wrong with the same G Mixo mode over a G chord instead?

This is where i get messed up with parent scales and applications

octatonic · March 2023

This is where modes are fun, because you can actually play any of the major modes over a major chord, but it depends on what you are trying to say and where the chord progression goes.

You can even play a minor pentatonic over a major chord- loads of rock, pop and blues music does this.

The problem is doing it mindlessly and without specific intent.
Always think 'what am I trying to say and why am I doing this'?

To a specific point:

'Am I right in thinking that the preferred chord to solo over with G Mixolydian would be C?'

Sort of but not really.
If you are playing over a C chord then the position on the neck might be around the 3rd fret, starting on the G but really you are playing C Major (Ionian mode).

Try to think of 'positions on the guitar' and 'modes' as separate things.
You can play any of the modes in any position... once you have learned to play them.
Be directed by the chord progression.

For imstance:

Dm7, G7, C maj7 call all be played with D dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian... because they are the same notes.

Playing a ii V I is not best done like this though- targeting chord tones is much better, especially the 3rd and the 7th.

For example play melodies where these notes feature as landing points in your phrasing:

Dm7 : F C
G7: B F
C maj7: E B

It is a good idea to note how close these notes are to each other, such as a semitone difference between the minor 7th of the ii chord and the 3rd of the V chord. And the 7th of the V chord and the 3rd of the 3rd of the I chord.

Now observe the notes that are in common.

Dm7's 3rd is the b7 of the V chord.
The V chord's 3rd is the 7th of the Cmaj7.

This is all important.

rsvmark · March 2023

I’ll play. The way it’s being taught to me is to also consider the ‘tonal centre’ of the song. So if your chord progression in a simple song is Dm C G, then while the diatonic harmony reference points point to the parent key as C major, the song sequence resolves to D minor each and every time you go around that sequence. So it has a minor feel. Try playing a C major based melody and it won’t sound right. Play a minor pentatonic or even Dorian at that point and it works.

So while Your legitimate notes come from D Dorian, C Ionian and G mixolydian, it’s all the modes from the C major scale. In theory you ‘could’ play F Lydian (4th degree of the scale and 4th mode), A Aeolian (6th degree/mode) or even B Locrian…. But it won’t necessarily sound any good. @octatonic then makes the point my teacher told me, if you select the chord tones of the chord you are over at that point (he recommends 5ths as well), and select your notes so they are adjacent to the previous and the next one, your playing then becomes really melodic. I think this is called playing the changes and also my teacher calls it voice leading.

But I defer to others with far more knowledge than me and apologies if I have given a bum steer.

Brad · March 2023

Hootsmon said:

Am I right in thinking that the preferred chord to solo over with G Mixolydian would be C?

No, the preferred chord to solo with G Mixolydian over is G and G7 (or any type of dominant chord).

Is C therefore considered the parent scale?

Yes, because G7 and G Mixolydian are derived from the C Major scale, they are related (share the same notes). G/G7 and G Mixolydian are the 5th chord/mode of the C Major Scale. But that’s not the only way to see G Mixolydian (or any mode for that matter).

What wrong with the same G Mixo mode over a G chord instead?

??? Nothing… but it’s not quite that simple. It depends on the context.

This is where i get messed up with parent scales and applications

Don’t worry, this stuff is confusing at first.

Hootsmon · March 2023

Brad said:

Hootsmon said:

Am I right in thinking that the preferred chord to solo over with G Mixolydian would be C?

No, the preferred chord to solo with G Mixolydian over is G and G7 (or any type of dominant chord).

Is C therefore considered the parent scale?
Yes, because G7 and G Mixolydian are derived from the C Major scale, they are related (share the same notes). G/G7 and G Mixolydian are the 5th chord/mode of the C Major Scale. But that’s not the only way to see G Mixolydian (or any mode for that matter).

What wrong with the same G Mixo mode over a G chord instead?

??? Nothing… but it’s not quite that simple. It depends on the context.
This is where i get messed up with parent scales and applications

Don’t worry, this stuff is confusing at first.

Well that's a start thanks. So, D Lydian is preferred over a D chord,yes?

Hootsmon · March 2023

@Brad

Brad · March 2023

Hootsmon said:

Well that's a start thanks. So, D Lydian is preferred over a D chord,yes?

In simple terms, yes… kind of (that’s probably really unhelpful

)

D Lydian can be played over a simple D chord. But then so could D Mixolydian or D Ionian. It depends on the context that the D chord is in and even then, that’s not always the whole story.

7ths and other extended chords give a clearer indication over what mode can be played over what chord. Using your examples;

Lydian is for Maj7 chords - D Lydian over Dmaj7

Mixolydian is for 7th chords - G Mixolydian over G7

The confusion stems from how to view modes as there are a few different ways.

Each of these modes has a parent scale. A major is the parent scale (same notes) of D Lydian (Mode 4 of A Major) and C major is the parent scale of G Mixolydian (Mode 5 of C major). This is the derivative approach.

Yet each of these modes is an alteration of it’s own major scale.

D Lydian is a D Major scale with a #4 (slightly different notes).

G Mixolydian is a G Major scale with a b7

This is known as the parallel approach.

As @octatonic says, the intent is the important thing as much as knowing the how, what and whys. I can make the sound of a mode apparent without the need of an underlying chord. It’s about nailing chord tones and the tones inherent to the sound of the mode and phrasing.

viz · March 2023

I want to play!

For me, with all things keys & harmony, the first question to answer is: what is the root note?

The 2nd is: is the song major or minor?

the 3rd is: is it natural major or minor, or is it a weird modal major or minor?

———————

in your case, let’s say the song is “in G”.

The following songs qualify for that:

Dancing Days (Led Zep)
I’m a believer

Georgia on my Mind
Evil ways (Santana)
Vaughan Williams Fantasia on theme of Tallis
Soldiers of Fortune (Whitesnake)

All the above are written “in G”. The home note, the “tonic” is G.

——————

Next question: is it major or minor?

The answer is given by the 3rd note in the scale. That tells you if the tonic chord is major or minor, and thus the song. Nothing more, nothing less. (I’m ignoring ambiguous tonalities.)

The first three songs have a major G chord; the bottom three songs have a minor G chord. So Dancing Days, I’m a Believer and Georgia have major tonality. The other three have minor tonality.

Major tonality:
Dancing Days (Led Zep)
I’m a believer
Georgia

Minor tonality:
Evil ways (Santana)
Vaughan Williams Fantasia on theme of Tallis
Soldiers of Fortune (Whitesnake)

———————

Third question: is it natural major or minor, or is it modal? The answer to that is to examine the modal notes.

If it’s a major tonality and has a raised 4th it’s Lydian. Dancing Days is in G Lydian.

If it’s a major tonality and has a lowered 7th it’s Mixolydian. I’m a Believer is in G Mixolydian.

Otherwise it’s pure, natural Major (aka Ionian). Georgia is in G Ionian.

And:

If it’s a minor tonality and has a raised 6th it’s Dorian. Evil Ways is in G Dorian.

If it’s a minor tonality and has a lowered 2nd it’s Phrygian. The Vaughan Williams is in G Phrygian.

Otherwise it’s pure, natural Minor (aka Aeolian). Soldiers of Fortune is in G Aeolian.

(NB - other minor scales are available)

——————

There’s another test you can do, looking at chords rather than notes:

If it’s a major tonality and has a major II chord it’s Lydian.

If it’s a major tonality and has a minor v chord it’s Mixolydian.

Otherwise it’s Ionian.

And:

If it’s a minor tonality and has a major IV chord it’s Dorian.

If it’s a minor tonality and has a minor vii chord (actually a minor bvii chord) it’s Phrygian.

Otherwise it’s Aeolian.

——————

That’s it. Simple as that.

Sooooo. With your question, I think you’re asking, which scale should I play over a song that’s in G mixolydian. The first, most important and simplest answer is the G mixolydian scale. As you saw above, this is like the G major scale, but with a lowered 7th. It’s GABCDEF(G). If you were playing G major it would be GABCDEF#(G). But that doesn’t contain the lowered 7th of mixolydian.

You actually wrote which chord should you play, and the answer to that is either a G major chord (1,3,5) or a G7 chord (1,3,5,b7), which gives you the lowered 7th. But definitely not a Gmaj7 chord. Other chords that harmonize with G mixolydian include C major, D minor, E minor, F major, A minor. But you really need to be playing a G chord of some sort.

I think you’re also asking which is the major scale that contains the notes of the G mixolydian scale?

All the scales mentioned earlier are relatives of the major scale, Ionian. Mixolydian happens to be the “fifth mode” of Ionian, so you need to count 5 notes downwards from G mixolydian to find the Ionian scale it’s the 5th mode of. You arrive at C major. The notes of C major contain the notes of G mixolydian. C major has CDEFGAB(C). G mixolydian has GABCDEF(G).

Modes are really simple. The word DEMO is the 3rd mode of MODE. Same letters, same order, just starting on a different letter. Likewise, MODE is the 3rd mode of DEMO. You see that? In the same way, G Mixolydian is the 5th mode of C major. And C major is the 4th mode of G mixolydian. D Dorian is the 2nd mode of C major; it’s also the 6th mode of G mixolydian. OK, most people reference modes from a “parent” Ionian scale, but you don’t actually have to. Just understand that demo is a mode of mode, and mode is a mode of demo, and know the sequence of modes (Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian) and you’ll be fine! Make a mnemonic to help you, something like I don’t fry leeks mixed with Aoli, look!

bloodandtears · March 2023

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

wizbit81 · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

What do you like?

sev112 · March 2023

@viz wiz for that bit about chords (ie if the 2nd chord of a major scale is major the it’s Lydian etc ) that is a really useful addition, and explains to me why I play lots of songs in Am with a D major chord

and the G minor in C

viz · March 2023

Nice one, I agree knowing those standout chords is really valuable. We all play in the blues box, barring those G and B strings with our first finger and then two frets up with our third finger - that’s going from a minor i chord to a major IV chord - classic Dorian.

bloodandtears · March 2023

wizbit81 said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

What do you like?

its a mnemonic

guitarjack66 · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

Rick Comiskey?

bloodandtears · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

Rick Comiskey?

No idea who that is... sorry

CarpeDiem · March 2023

@viz Your explanation is really helpful.

Would you mind expanding on the DEMO / MODE point? Apologies to all those who understood it first time!

bloodandtears · March 2023

CarpeDiem said:

@viz Your explanation is really helpful.

Would you mind expanding on the DEMO / MODE point? Apologies to all those who understood it first time!

The shift of the starting point..

1) D E M O

2) E M O D

3) M O D E

1) C D E F G A B C - Ionian

2) D E F G A B C D - Dorian

3) E F G A B C D E - Phrygian

etc

CarpeDiem · March 2023

Thanks @bloodandtears - I understand now!

Hootsmon · March 2023

Yikes! THANKS tae everybuddy and Viz

Lovely peeps one and all

wizbit81 · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

wizbit81 said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

What do you like?

its a mnemonic

Haha so it is. That completely went over my head!

viz · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

Superb!

digitalkettle · March 2023

viz said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

Superb!

Yeah, I missed that too...well snuck

nikharrison · March 2023

One of my old blog posts:

One of the most commonly asked questions is “Which scales work over what chords?” I frequently answer this question by pointing out that it depends entirely on what you consider the “working” to mean?

What is a scale ‘working’ over a chord anyway?

Where this may appear not to answer the question at all and be a thoroughly unhelpful digression into the philosophical implications of perception, it’s actually worth thinking about because the whole idea that certain ‘prescribed’ scales work over certain chords, chord types, or chord sequences is actually rendering music and improvisation a sterile by-product of a prescribed approach, and a institutionalised ‘system’.

Using jazz as an example, there are some people who hate this style of music for whom the whole idea of a scale “working” over a chord or chord sequence (as a player improvises) is as far removed from a good idea as can be! Some may consider a scale ‘working’ over a chord progression to be dull, boring, and most probably the least inspirational music they may be exposed to. While rightfully entitled to their opinion, to what extent is this scale ‘working’ for them? It isn’t, so does the scale ‘work’ with the chord or chord sequence? It depends who is listening, and in the space between the extremes in musical taste (someone who hates jazz, and a jazz lover) the question of whether or not, and if so the extent to which a scale may ‘work’ over a chord, has many, many manifestations of answer, none right nor wrong, none more or less accurate than the previous or last, and the reason the question “Which scales work over what chords?” is ultimately vague, subjective, and with no real definitive answer.

Clearly it’s a good thing to learn which scales work over certain chords in a conventional sense. This starting point is invaluable for the serious and committed student of improvisation, but as I frequently say to my students, the scales, modes, and arpeggios which are most commonly ‘prescribed’ to work over certain chords and sequences don’t actually serve to help you to sound good. They serve to help you avoid sounding bad (which is not the same thing). Who wants to sound good anyway? Doesn’t the aspiring guitarist want to sound ‘great’? Don’t they want to play with their own voice, unrestricted by any technical or musical constraints that may stand in the way of them truly expressing what they really mean? The idea that someone wants to sound ‘good’ seems like one step too close to mediocrity when compared with the actual level that a player may aspire to!

Still want to know which scales work over which chords? You can find all that information on the internet.

Wouldn’t you rather know how to be a great guitarist? To find that out, the only way is to think about what scales ‘working’ over chords means to you, and then asking some better questions about it regarding how you really want to sound.

stickyfiddle · March 2023

My take… don’t worry about modes. Concentrate on melodies and then modes become the way of explaining what any given melody is doing.

A huge portion of guitarists and think about using modes and scales as “how to play well”, rather than focusing on playing notes that form interesting melodies first and foremost, and worrying about how & why those melodies work later.

FWIW when I’m improvising over a set of chords I’m thinking about patterns and chord shapes and how to thread a melody together around those chord tones. I don't believe I’ve ever had a conscious thought about modes while actually playing the guitar.

Zapple · March 2023

This is still the most simple explanation of modes.... Over to Vinnie Moore!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKOvlsTvjic&t=1210s

The modes bit starts at 20mins in

roberty · March 2023

wizbit81 said:

bloodandtears said:

wizbit81 said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

What do you like?

its a mnemonic

Haha so it is. That completely went over my head!

Took me a while lol

MrBump · March 2023

Zapple said:

This is still the most simple explanation of modes.... Over to Vinnie Moore!

I'd forgotten how good Vinnie Moore was...

guitarjack66 · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

guitarjack66 said:

bloodandtears said:

I don't particularly like modes a lot.

Rick Comiskey?

No idea who that is... sorry

An online guitar teacher who pushes that phrase when speaking of modes. A lot!

viz · March 2023

MrBump said:

Zapple said:

This is still the most simple explanation of modes.... Over to Vinnie Moore!

I'd forgotten how good Vinnie Moore was...

His note choices remind me of @octatonic’s playing btw.

Cranky · March 2023

Late to the game, but my direct response to op would be

(1) You would play the C major scale for G mixolydian, but not necessarily a C major chord over G. Playing G, G7, Bdim, maybe F9 or Am/F chord tones over the G would sound good, depending on what you’re going for and what part of the progression you’re in. That G7 really likes to pull our western ears back to C, so if that’s not where you wanna go then that’s gotta get worked out.

(2) To me, what makes G mix special is the F. Or even the B and F together (the major 3rd with the flat 7). I like to find ways to highlight that note as part of a lead riff, solo note or something like that.

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Modes...which chord?

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