Challenge: the opposite of a 251

viz · March 2023

Hello all,

I’m compiling a list of songs that have stacked plagal cadences, not perfect cadences. So instead of back-cycling round the C of 5, I’m looking for examples of forward-cycling.

Examples of 741s would be great (like Sweet Home Alabama which has D C G D

), but also some long strings would be awesome, like the 63741 of Hey Joe (CGDAE) and Timewarp (FCGDA).

Anyone?

Stuckfast · March 2023

Pop Muzik by M is 741 all the way.

guitarmangler · March 2023

The riff /main chord sequence to ‘I can’t explain’ by the who .

sev112 · March 2023

How about 747 (Saxon) and 54321 by Manfred Mann

Evo · March 2023

Sweet Home Alabama only has a 741 if you consider D the root note though...and even then I don't think there's ever a time where the progression starts on the C. So it'd be a 1, b7, 4.

A lot of the progressions you're going to find would fall into the modal category and be infinitely debatable about the "correct" way to describe them from a theoretical standpoint.

Let's take Fleetwood Mac's "Don't Stop" as an example here.

E, D, A, A

Most would look at those chords and instantly assume a 5, 4, 1 in the key of A.

After all, chords 1, 4, and 5 are probably the most recognisable to any guitarist as a 12 bar blues (or "three-chord-trick") and the two bars on A at the end definitely help hammer that home as the root note.

However, the pre-chorus introduces a B7 chord.

This gives us extra information we weren't aware of before.

A B7 chord points us towards E being the root note as a dominant 7 chord like B7 is usually found on the 5 chord of whichever key you're in. Not exclusively, but certainly most often.

This means that our 5, 4, 1 in the verses would actually be a 1, b7, 4 (just like Sweet Home Alabama)

So here's where the debating comes in....

Is it more likely that the verses are really just a much more common progression...the 5, 4, 1

and the B7 in the pre chorus is just creating tension before hitting the E again for the beginning of the chorus?

OR

Is the whole song really a much more unusual approach, taking a common progression and coming at it from a totally new angle (i.e. a new key) and the verses really are intended as a 1, b7, 4 designed to lull you into a false sense of key until the pre chorus hits you with the surprise reveal that we were in E all along.

For what it's worth, I think the second one in this example. The entire intro to the tune is E, and Lindsay Buckingham chooses to take his solo in E rather than A, so there are plenty of other pointers towards E in the rest of the song.

But the whole thing is definitely debatable, and a case could even be made that the verses could be seen as a key change to A with the B7 in the pre chorus serving to help modulate to E....despite the verse and chorus being exactly the same chords!

Stuckfast · March 2023

Stuckfast · March 2023

And this classic of course:

Stuckfast · March 2023

I'm wondering if it's possible to construct a chord sequence that fits the bill and contains both major and minor chords. Can say IV-i be described as a plagal cadence? I think all the 63741 examples posted so far use only major chords and they all work in pretty much the same way -- the song sits on the tonic for a while, jumps to the flat 6 chord and quickly works its way back to the tonic. Unless you can use minor chords or sometimes move by a tritone rather than a straight fourth, it's going to be hard to produce anything very sophisticated I've have thought.

viz · March 2023

Nice one guys, thanks. Stuckfast those are excellent - cheers!

and yep Evo, I was being tongue in cheek about SHA. (Though it is in D and is 174(1) all the way, of course!)

viz · April 2023

Stuckfast said:

I'm wondering if it's possible to construct a chord sequence that fits the bill and contains both major and minor chords. Can say IV-i be described as a plagal cadence? I think all the 63741 examples posted so far use only major chords and they all work in pretty much the same way -- the song sits on the tonic for a while, jumps to the flat 6 chord and quickly works its way back to the tonic. Unless you can use minor chords or sometimes move by a tritone rather than a straight fourth, it's going to be hard to produce anything very sophisticated I've have thought.

Oh and yeah, a IV-i is a Dorian Plagal cadence. Like the D-Am at the end of the 2nd line of Scarborough Fair.

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Challenge: the opposite of a 251

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