Koa acoustics - opinions please

Ungulate · March 2023

I have a fabulous dreadnaught - Brook Teign but now have a hankering for something a little smaller, prob grand auditorium size, and also something perhaps a little warmer in tone.

I play quite a lot of fingerstyle (prev classical background) & thought that KOA might be the way forward. Opinions seem to be that koa gets warmer as time goes by, but might be "bright & tight" initially.

Any koa owners out there like to comment? I have been tempted by the Taylor K24ce & 724ce.

Thanks again guys.

greejn · March 2023

I've got the Taylor GS mini e in Koa, very good guitar all round. Tone is quite warm for a newish instrument.

bertie · March 2023

I played a Brook Lyn, Cedar on Koa up at intersound quite a while back - it was stunning, projecting and so balanced - I should've bought it, but back then £1400 (used) was beyond my resources

malcolmkindness · March 2023

I have a Martin 00028k 1921 authentic which is all Koa and a very sweet guitar. However, how much of this sweetness can be attributed to the Koa, I can't say.

Tannin · March 2023

I can't see the point in specifying Koa for a new build. While it is structurally and tonally very similar to Blackwood (which is no surprise given that it is a very close relative) Koa is endangered and in very short supply. Plantation-grown stocks exist but most are years away from being ready to harvest. In consequence, it tends to be very expensive. Blackwood, in contrast, is readily available, not in the slightest endangered, grows over an area vastly bigger than the whole of Hawaii (the small island group where Koa comes from), and of course cheaper. Bit of a no-brainer really.

I own one Blackwood guitar (a Sitka Spruce top Maton WA May with a Blackwood neck) and previously owned another (a Cole Clark 12-string with a Queensland Maple neck and a Bunya Pine top) and frequently encounter other ones.- between them, Blackwood and Queensland Maple account for maybe 80% of all guitar back and sides made in Australia and probably 90% of necks. The chap across the road owns a nice Sitka and Blackwood Martin which I play sometimes and posted pictures of here a while back. In my book, Blackwood is very hard to beat. It has warmth, richness and complexity but not the cloying lushness of Indian Rosewood, nor the dry bark of mahogany. Just a lovely timber.

You should get a reasonably similar sound out of Koa or from any of at least one and probably more like a dozen closely related species not much used as tonewoods largely because Blackwood is well-known and readily available. (There are almost 1000 species in the genus Acacia, with much variety in the timbers.)

Blackwood (and doubtless Koa) play in in the normal way. (In other words I've never heard anyone suggest that Koa takes more or less time to play in than (say) rosewood or maple.

But I see that you have linked to a pair of all-Koa guitars. Now you are in a different world. This is where the talk of "taking a long time to play in" comes from - a Koa top. Exactly the same is said of all the other common hardwood tops (Blackwood, mahogany, khaya, and so on). Hardwoods take a long time to play in. All-Blackwood guitars are popular here in Oz (Maton has made them for donkey's years and Cole Clark - with its company focus on amplified acoustics for stage use - makes a heap of them. Mostly, they don't do so much for me - but I've never played a Maton one and I once picked up an all-Blackwood Cole Clark Angel II which was just lovely. I wasn't shopping for an acoustic guitar at the time so I didn't buy it, but I kept thinking about it over the next few days and decided to go and have another look and if it seemed just as brilliant second time around I'd buy it. Of course, it was already sold.

Taylor have worked hard to get sustainable Koa plantations up and running, though I don't know if they are harvesting yet. If you are having one built, Blackwood will be a much better choice - hundreds of pounds cheaper and more readily available.

Ungulate · March 2023

Tannin said:

I can't see the point in specifying Koa for a new build. While it is structurally and tonally very similar to Blackwood (which is no surprise given that it is a very close relative) Koa is endangered and in very short supply. Plantation-grown stocks exist but most are years away from being ready to harvest. In consequence, it tends to be very expensive. Blackwood, in contrast, is readily available, not in the slightest endangered, grows over an area vastly bigger than the whole of Hawaii (the small island group where Koa comes from), and of course cheaper. Bit of a no-brainer really.

I own one Blackwood guitar (a Sitka Spruce top Maton WA May with a Blackwood neck) and previously owned another (a Cole Clark 12-string with a Queensland Maple neck and a Bunya Pine top) and frequently encounter other ones.- between them, Blackwood and Queensland Maple account for maybe 80% of all guitar back and sides made in Australia and probably 90% of necks. The chap across the road owns a nice Sitka and Blackwood Martin which I play sometimes and posted pictures of here a while back. In my book, Blackwood is very hard to beat. It has warmth, richness and complexity but not the cloying lushness of Indian Rosewood, nor the dry bark of mahogany. Just a lovely timber.

You should get a reasonably similar sound out of Koa or from any of at least one and probably more like a dozen closely related species not much used as tonewoods largely because Blackwood is well-known and readily available. (There are almost 1000 species in the genus Acacia, with much variety in the timbers.)

Blackwood (and doubtless Koa) play in in the normal way. (In other words I've never heard anyone suggest that Koa takes more or less time to play in than (say) rosewood or maple.

But I see that you have linked to a pair of all-Koa guitars. Now you are in a different world. This is where the talk of "taking a long time to play in" comes from - a Koa top. Exactly the same is said of all the other common hardwood tops (Blackwood, mahogany, khaya, and so on). Hardwoods take a long time to play in. All-Blackwood guitars are popular here in Oz (Maton has made them for donkey's years and Cole Clark - with its company focus on amplified acoustics for stage use - makes a heap of them. Mostly, they don't do so much for me - but I've never played a Maton one and I once picked up an all-Blackwood Cole Clark Angel II which was just lovely. I wasn't shopping for an acoustic guitar at the time so I didn't buy it, but I kept thinking about it over the next few days and decided to go and have another look and if it seemed just as brilliant second time around I'd buy it. Of course, it was already sold.

Taylor have worked hard to get sustainable Koa plantations up and running, though I don't know if they are harvesting yet. If you are having one built, Blackwood will be a much better choice - hundreds of pounds cheaper and more readily available.

I really appreciate your carefully considered reply...will investigate Blackwood & take your point about all Koa guitars, I have been lulled into thinking Taylor's sustainable Koa is "a good thing" but as you say how long till they mature...thank you.

bertie · March 2023

its called Tasmanian Blackwood here in the UK (and possibly Europe) - it was meant to be what my Brook was going to be, but Simon couldnt get hold of any at that time

Tannin · March 2023

It seems really odd not to be able to get hold of any Blackwood. Any Australian tonewood supplier has it always in stock the way a supermarket always has tins of beans. It is common and fairly cheap as tonewoods go. Possibly no UK-based tonewood vendor had any on the shelf and they didn't want to muck about with importing direct.

"Tasmanian Blackwood" is an idiotic thing to call it. It's correct name is simply "Blackwood" - see any botany text or field guide. If it is usually obvious from the context but if confusion with African Blackwood is possible, then "Australian Blackwood" is reasonable, but saying "Tasmanian Blackwood" for a tree which grows in an area stretching more than 3500 kilometres from north to south through five of the six Australian state, an area 15 times the size of the entire state of Tasmania is absurd. *

Victoria supplies the lion's share of it, with Tasmania second and New South Wales third. I shouldn't think there would be any commercial logging of it in South Australia or Queensland.

It would be as silly as calling a tree which grows in about 50 different countries including the whole of Europe and quite a bit of Western Asia "English Oak".

Oh wait ....

* I blame Taylor. (If in doubt, always blame the Americans. Works for me.)

GTC · March 2023

bertie said:

its called Tasmanian Blackwood here in the UK (and possibly Europe) - it was meant to be what my Brook was going to be, but Simon couldnt get hold of any at that time

My recent Brook Weaver (see NGD) has Blackwood back and sides. In appearance and tonal qualities, it is very similar to koa.

ToneControl · March 2023

I have an all-koa Avalon Jumbo, they had some nice koa in stock
It is very responsive

I ran the ToneRite on it for a few days when I got it
I like it a lot

bertie · March 2023

Tannin said:

I

"Tasmanian Blackwood" is an idiotic thing to call it. It's correct name is simply "Blackwood" -

no its not, not here

in the UK and possibly Europe other woods from other sources (rightly or wrongly) were also known as "blackwood", hence, despite your constant protestations, its known as Tasmanian Blackwood.

We've had this discussion before, or rather you ranted and we had to listen

Tannin · March 2023

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

fretfinder · March 2023

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

guitarjack66 · March 2023

fretfinder said:

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

I'm guessing @Tannin feels strongly about endangering a species when he believes it is unnecessary and damaging to the planet? He maybe has a point?

fretfinder · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

I'm guessing @Tannin feels strongly about endangering a species when he believes it is unnecessary and damaging to the planet? He maybe has a point?

What? His post that I’ve replied to above has nothing to do with endangered species and is all about how idiotic it is to call Blackwood - ‘Tasmanian’ Blackwood. Did you comment on the wrong post by mistake?

Tannin · March 2023

Names matter. It is only when we name things accurately that we can think about them clearly. Silly names (even technically correct ones) often lead to erroneous conclusions, and wrong names are even worse.

Different branches of biology are at different stages of the development of proper nomenclature. Bird people are usually very good these days, not perfect yet but they have made huge progress towards the goal of having a single unique common name for every species. The mammal people are not all that far behind. The reptile people have taken a different approach and just ignore common names entirely. (This is an approach with its own pitfalls. Scientific names are less a unique identifier of a species than they are a hypothesis about that species;' relationship to other species, and they change frequently. For example, the Little Egret (a common wading bird) has been Ardea garzetta, Egretta nigripes, and Egretta garzetta - but has been the Little Egret all along. If you want to identify the species unambiguously, the formal common name is often more useful (and much easier to remember) than the scientific name.) I'n not sure where the fish people are up to these days.

Plant people are well behind, alas. Nevertheless, there is usually a correct English language common name for most of the plants we tend to be interested in. And timber merchants are the worst of the whole lot. (And have many times been deliberately obscure or misleading.)

So yes, too right I am fussy about using the correct name for timbers. And so I should be. Names matter.

Grampa · March 2023

And back to the OP's original question....
I have a GS Mini-e in Koa. Chose it over the Rosewood/Mahogany versions as it has a much fuller more resonant sound. It also sustains for far longer than the other versions, not sure if this is a good or bad thing in an acoustic as very early days in my non electric journey.

Ungulate · March 2023

Grampa said:

And back to the OP's original question....
I have a GS Mini-e in Koa. Chose it over the Rosewood/Mahogany versions as it has a much fuller more resonant sound. It also sustains for far longer than the other versions, not sure if this is a good or bad thing in an acoustic as very early days in my non electric journey.

Thanks for the input mate! am going to head to GAK Brighton soon to play koa and many other guitars.

Grampa · March 2023

Ungulate said:

Grampa said:

And back to the OP's original question....
I have a GS Mini-e in Koa. Chose it over the Rosewood/Mahogany versions as it has a much fuller more resonant sound. It also sustains for far longer than the other versions, not sure if this is a good or bad thing in an acoustic as very early days in my non electric journey.

Thanks for the input mate! am going to head to GAK Brighton soon to play koa and many other guitars.

Welcome my friend, enjoy your trip and hopefully a soon to be NGD

guitarjack66 · March 2023

fretfinder said:

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

I'm guessing @Tannin feels strongly about endangering a species when he believes it is unnecessary and damaging to the planet? He maybe has a point?

What? His post that I’ve replied to above has nothing to do with endangered species and is all about how idiotic it is to call Blackwood - ‘Tasmanian’ Blackwood. Did you comment on the wrong post by mistake?

I thought he,Tannin,was pointing out that Koa is not just one species but many and a narrow type of that species is being overused for cosmetic purposes when many other varieties could be used instead without harming the environment,or that wood at least?

WindmillGuitars · March 2023

@Ungulate Check out the Eastman AC622CE-KOA-LTD Limited Edition All Koa GA - just 300 available worldwide.
I have one left in stock

https://www.eastmanguitars.com/ac622ce_koa_ltd_new

Choivert · March 2023

I played a really really wonderful all Koa guitar built by Atkin guitars in guitar guitar Newcastle. I don't remember the specific model but it was truly wonderful. It played the socks off a Martin CS 000 and a D28 (to my ears at least.)

I know nothing about Atkin's wood policy and never thought I would love a Koa guitar as I don't love all hog guitars but I thought this one was special.

Ungulate · March 2023

WindmillGuitars said:

@Ungulate Check out the Eastman AC622CE-KOA-LTD Limited Edition All Koa GA - just 300 available worldwide.
I have one left in stock

https://www.eastmanguitars.com/ac622ce_koa_ltd_new

It looks great...nice spec, but it's a hell of a journey to try it out from Somerset...appreciate the thought, thanks!

Tannin · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

I'm guessing @Tannin feels strongly about endangering a species when he believes it is unnecessary and damaging to the planet? He maybe has a point?

What? His post that I’ve replied to above has nothing to do with endangered species and is all about how idiotic it is to call Blackwood - ‘Tasmanian’ Blackwood. Did you comment on the wrong post by mistake?

I thought he,Tannin,was pointing out that Koa is not just one species but many and a narrow type of that species is being overused for cosmetic purposes when many other varieties could be used instead without harming the environment,or that wood at least?

Not quite, Jack. Koa is indeed badly over-utilised and there are indeed at least three other acacia species (probably more) which produce equally good sound and are just as easy to work. One of those three, Blackwood, is readily available in quantity. Like Koa it can be very attractive visually (you've seen my WA May) but (as with Koa and indeed most timbers) highly figured pieces are less common than visually plain ones. (The third, Silver Wattle, is even more common but seldom harvested because it is lighter in colour and people like pretty.)

I have a suspicion that you get wilder grain patterns when a species has been badly over-logged - look at the Brazilian Rosewood you see around in recent years, a lot of it is highly patterned even by Brazilian Rosewood standards because it's come from stumps and other leftovers. From time to time I see Koa guitars which seem a bit similar. But that is only suspicion. I'd be interested to hear other views on that point.

Koa is a single species. But I think you meant something like "group of related species" and taking that as your intent, you raise a good point. However the over-use of Koa probably has more to do with its geographical isolation to a group of small islands. This has two implications: (a) there was never very much of it in the first place, and (b) there is no easy and obvious path to diversify into other similar species.

Compare with mahogany. Cuban Mahogany was the one to have early on, and when it started to become hard to get, the industry switched seamlessly to the closely related Honduran Mahogany which grew nearby. That set the precedent (that "it's OK to substitute a different timber") and timber merchants soon felt free to call all sorts of other things "mahogany" - khaya from Africa (so-called "African mahogany") and Sapele are obvious ones.

guitarjack66 · March 2023

Tannin said:

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

guitarjack66 said:

fretfinder said:

Tannin said:

But "Tasmanian" is downright stupid. It grows all over the country and most of it comes from Victoria."Australian Blackwood" is perfectly reasonable if you want to distinguish it from African Blackwood (actually a rosewood) or Malaysian Blackwood (actually an ebony) but "Tasmanian" is daft.

Now it’s not only ‘idiotic’ but also ‘stupid’ and ‘daft’! OK we get your rant point but no need to get apoplectic about it!

I'm guessing @Tannin feels strongly about endangering a species when he believes it is unnecessary and damaging to the planet? He maybe has a point?

What? His post that I’ve replied to above has nothing to do with endangered species and is all about how idiotic it is to call Blackwood - ‘Tasmanian’ Blackwood. Did you comment on the wrong post by mistake?

I thought he,Tannin,was pointing out that Koa is not just one species but many and a narrow type of that species is being overused for cosmetic purposes when many other varieties could be used instead without harming the environment,or that wood at least?

Not quite, Jack. Koa is indeed badly over-utilised and there are indeed at least three other acacia species (probably more) which produce equally good sound and are just as easy to work. One of those three, Blackwood, is readily available in quantity. Like Koa it can be very attractive visually (you've seen my WA May) but (as with Koa and indeed most timbers) highly figured pieces are less common than visually plain ones. (The third, Silver Wattle, is even more common but seldom harvested because it is lighter in colour and people like pretty.)

I have a suspicion that you get wilder grain patterns when a species has been badly over-logged - look at the Brazilian Rosewood you see around in recent years, a lot of it is highly patterned even by Brazilian Rosewood standards because it's come from stumps and other leftovers. From time to time I see Koa guitars which seem a bit similar. But that is only suspicion. I'd be interested to hear other views on that point.

Koa is a single species. But I think you meant something like "group of related species" and taking that as your intent, you raise a good point. However the over-use of Koa probably has more to do with its geographical isolation to a group of small islands. This has two implications: (a) there was never very much of it in the first place, and (b) there is no easy and obvious path to diversify into other similar species.

Compare with mahogany. Cuban Mahogany was the one to have early on, and when it started to become hard to get, the industry switched seamlessly to the closely related Honduran Mahogany which grew nearby. That set the precedent (that "it's OK to substitute a different timber") and timber merchants soon felt free to call all sorts of other things "mahogany" - khaya from Africa (so-called "African mahogany") and Sapele are obvious ones.

Not being a Botanist,yes I did sort of mean 'related species' or 'type' but couldn't put my thought process into writing!
I am with you in using alternative woods or sources for those woods though. I too fear for our planet when we keep wiping out large parts of it's lungs for nothing more than 'because it looks pretty.'
But just for balance and not solely to bash us British,my wife watches tv stuff like 'Aussie Gold Diggers' or Opal stuff too and what they are doing to parts of Australia for the pursuit of that stuff saddens me too. I have looked on Google maps and you can see the mess and holes in the surface of the ground like craters on the moon. It sickens me to see what individuals are doing,let alone those big corporations. Oz is a bucket list place to visit for me too.

Ungulate · March 2023

My brother is emigrating to NZ...planning a prolonged trip there and to Aus next year...wondering how much it'd cost to bring an acoustic back from the Antipodes?

Tannin · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

Not being a Botanist,yes I did sort of mean 'related species' or 'type' but couldn't put my thought process into writing!
I am with you in using alternative woods or sources for those woods though. I too fear for our planet when we keep wiping out large parts of it's lungs for nothing more than 'because it looks pretty.'
But just for balance and not solely to bash us British,my wife watches tv stuff like 'Aussie Gold Diggers' or Opal stuff too and what they are doing to parts of Australia for the pursuit of that stuff saddens me too. I have looked on Google maps and you can see the mess and holes in the surface of the ground like craters on the moon. It sickens me to see what individuals are doing,let alone those big corporations. Oz is a bucket list place to visit for me too.

Just so Jack. In general, mining is not the demon it is made out to be. There are far, far more damaging industries - agriculture, real estate development, and yes, forestry. It is not the felling of mature trees for specialist high-value uses (fine furniture, wood turning, musical instruments) that does the damage (that would not add up to a fraction of one percent), nor even the harvesting of trees for sawlogs to make construction timber, it is our insane dedication to razing vast areas to turn into low-value woodchips for export to Japan and China. Why we have pretty much specialised in the least profitable and most pointless of all timber products ... well, it beats me.

Sing out when you come to Oz.

Tannin · March 2023

Ungulate said:

My brother is emigrating to NZ...planning a prolonged trip there and to Aus next year...wondering how much it'd cost to bring an acoustic back from the Antipodes?

Quite a bit.

Freight is quite reasonable - less than £200 - and there is no import duty because the UK and Australia have a free trade agreement but you get hammered with 20% VAT

There is no point in buying a Martin or a Furch or a Taylor or a Yamaha here. Yes, they will be a it cheaper up front but by the time you pay a little freight and a lot of VAT (and possibly some customs duty as well) you will be worse off than if you just went down to your local dealer.

But if you are looking at Australian-made guitars, you can save quite a bit on the grossly inflated prices they sell for in the UK. Example: a Maton Tommy Emmanuel Personal (hand made in the Custom Shop by Maton's head luthier and a truly wonderful instrument) goes for £5750. The one I played in Melbourne last year (and only didn't buy because I bought a different hand-made Maton) was $6500. That is £3583. Deduct the 10% GST and you get £3225. Now add (say) $200 for freight. Finally, add 20% VAT (on both the guitar and the freight): your final price: £4110 - a whopping £1640 cheaper if you buy it in Oz.

Let's do something a bit cheaper. I'll take the Maton EBG808TE as the example. (Another Tommy Emmanuel signature model, very similar to the one above (which is the exact guitar Tommy plays) but factory-made. In the UK they are £2199. Here they have gone up quite a bit since 2020 (when they were $2599) and are now listing at $2999, which is £1653. Dop the same things with freight and GST and VAT and we end up with £2025, which is only £174 less than buying in Blighty. (But you could almost certainly pay $100 or so less by looking around a bit, maybe $200 less, and I'm assuming £200 for freight which is a bit pessimistic. So say £300 cheaper. Possibly not worth the trouble.)

The other thing you might consider is a New Zealand made guitar. I've never played one but there are several well-regarded luthiers making guitars in a variety of very special materials - notably sinker New Zealand Kauri, which they rave about. Pricey, but not something you'd see hanging on a wall in Guitar Guitar.

Ungulate · March 2023

Thats really helpful...yeah I was thinking of Maton or other Aussie luthiers.

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Koa acoustics - opinions please

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