final countdown help

dazzer22 · March 2023

i have been learning Europe final countdown solo the part with the fast arpeggios i think is alternate picking, but i am not sure if its all alternated picked for every note?
the way i am playing for the fast arpeggios is notes B up, D down, hammer on F# pull off D . and on , is this right or should i be alternate picking all the notes in the arpeggios .

viz · March 2023

I just pick the first note in each group.

digitalkettle · March 2023

I think it's displaced groups of four with a single pull-off...

But I can't decide how I prefer to pick it:

strict alternate - D U D (pull-off), U D U (pull-off), etc. bit odd due to the start of each group switching between D and U
downwards economy - D D U (pull-off), D D U (pull-off), etc. feels like you need to slide with the position shifts
upwards economy - U D U (pull-off), U D U (pull-off), etc.

dazzer22 · March 2023

digitalkettle said:

I think it's displaced groups of four with a single pull-off...

But I can't decide how I prefer to pick it:
strict alternate - D U D (pull-off), U D U (pull-off), etc. bit odd due to the start of each group switching between D and U
downwards economy - D D U (pull-off), D D U (pull-off), etc. feels like you need to slide with the position shifts
upwards economy - U D U (pull-off), U D U (pull-off), etc.

I have better results using upwards economy , Tried alternate picking all the notes but can't get the speed ,

digitalkettle · March 2023

dazzer22 said:
I have better results using upwards economy , Tried alternate picking all the notes but can't get the speed ,

I'm inclined to agree (no pun intended)...weird as 'downwards economy' doesn't require any string escaping.

They all make good exercises though

Next up: YJM's 'Rising Force' solo?

Danny1969 · March 2023

The first 2 notes are down for me. The picks going in that direction so it just falls onto the next note. It sounds double tracked on the record to me.
Hybrid picking in a half Knopfler / half pick works quite well .. in face I can hybrid pick it faster than I can using the pick alone.

It's good fun whichever way you do it.

digitalkettle · March 2023

From the man himself, it appears to be alternate picking:

Danny1969 said:

...It sounds double tracked on the record to me...

Listening to the isolated track it's actually harmonised!

First time I've listened to it that closely

digitalkettle · March 2023

If anyone is interested, I just knocked up a full transcription (link is in my sig).

DrCornelius · March 2023

Nice ! Look forward to learning that - I love that solo but it’s not anything I’m ever going to play in the wild so I haven’t ever thought about learning it until now

Roland · March 2023

digitalkettle said: I can't decide how I prefer to pick it

Whatever feels and sounds right to you. My first priority would be “what does my version of the song need?”. If you really can’t decide then the second would be “is this an opportunity to learn a different way of playing these hammers and pull-offs?”

bloodandtears · March 2023

When you break it down, it's basically 5 repetitions into 4 beats of the bar... but never when I do it.. I find it tricky to avoid playing 4 into 4.. it's still flashy and Joe Public couldn't care less...

Poly-rhythms are my Kryptonite I reckon

dazzer22 · March 2023

bloodandtears said:

When you break it down, it's basically 5 repetitions into 4 beats of the bar... but never when I do it.. I find it tricky to avoid playing 4 into 4.. it's still flashy and Joe Public couldn't care less...

Poly-rhythms are my Kryptonite I reckon

i think its more of a speed issue 16th notes with 5 notes being played in 4 beats bar , i can just about do it but its still very hard and has to be timed spot on if playing alone to the backing track, I don't think i could ever alternate pick each string at that speed so its about finding what works .

CaseOfAce · March 2023

For a start the Norum vid above is in Eb tuning...

To play it at that speed down pick the first B string note, then up stroke the high e (second) note and immediately hammer on and rapidly pull off the 3rd higher note - and then it's just a case of repeating the arpeggios in that fashion.
If you try and play that 3rd note in each arpeggio with a downstroke and then pull off.. you won't get the same speed / feel.

Damn .. I can't believe I've finally got this down.! ;-)

Like a lot of guitar stuff - once you've figured out the party trick it becomes a lot lot easier...

stufisher · March 2023

Once I've got beyond the obvious 'sticking points' with the Beat it solo I might have a go at Final Countdown.

As always, my starting point will be Carl Brown so perhaps @dazzer22 you might find this useful:

Danny1969 · March 2023

digitalkettle said:

From the man himself, it appears to be alternate picking:

Danny1969 said:

...It sounds double tracked on the record to me...

Listening to the isolated track it's actually harmonised!

First time I've listened to it that closely

Oh I could hear the harmony but if you listen carefully it sounds like 2 guitars play one part in unison and then 2 guitars play the harmony part in unison. It's a thicker sound than the more traditional simple Thin Lizzy / Iron Maiden approach.

What the part actually is ... in essence, is a rocked up version of the outro solo from Sultans of Swing but moving the triad shape rather than modifying the inversion like Knopfler does.

bloodandtears · March 2023

Danny1969 said:

What the part actually is ... in essence, is a rocked up version of the outro solo from Sultans of Swing but moving the triad shape rather than modifying the inversion like Knopfler does.

In essence, yes, but Sultan's arpeggio patterns repeats on the beat, Final Countdown does not, which add the complexity.

When I play it, it always feels like a race to fit the 5 repeats in.. almost ignoring the 4/4 time. Kryptonite!!

It was the same with a Gary Moore lick in "Walking by myself"

digitalkettle · March 2023

digitalkettle said:

If anyone is interested, I just knocked up a full transcription (link is in my sig).

Recorded it for a laugh...ended up going with alternate picking for the arps:

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