Is there a quick way to find out what note appears in which chords?

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Is there a way to quickly find out say what chords G# or Ab appeared in without going through all the permutations in your head if you could remember them .

so it would be Root in G# major & Minor , a minor 3rd in F minor an augmented 5th in C minor7#5 (ok I looked that one up) but to save me counting on my fingers or writing out 1 3 5 7 9 etc .

Is there a resource besides my brain that could give me what most popular chords a certain note appears in eg major minor triads ,7ths , diminished etc .

viz · March 2023

I think you just have to a) know your keys, or b) count down or up.

So Ab major or G# minor.

Then counting down, it’s the 3rd of E major or F minor, and the 5th of Db major or C# minor.

And counting up it’s the dom 7 of Bb and the major 7th of A (or A minor harmonic / melodic).

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Thanks Viz

viz · March 2023

I spose another way of thinking about it is by playing your inversions using the low E string, and looking at what chords they are that you’re playing.

So all the following chords have the 4th fret on the E string as the bottom note.

You already have Ab major: 466544

and G# minor: 466444

Then you can play your 1st inversions:

The C-shaped chord 476454, which is E major (E/G#)

Or the minor 1st inversion, 43356x, which is F minor Fm/Ab)

And then your 2nd inversions: 44666x, Db major (Db/Ab)

and 446654, C# minor (C#m/G#)

For dom 7 chords in 3rd inversion I do something that’s probably not correct or orthodox, which is 45633x, which is Bb7/Ab.

I don’t think I ever play a major 7th at the bottom, but I suppose it would be 44222x or something, for Amaj7/G#.

Then you mentioned dim chords. For dim7 it would be G#dim7 - 45646x - which would also be inversions of Bdim7, Ddim7 and Fdim7 (just by counting)

For the half-diminished or half-diminished 7th chord (dim triad with a standard 7th (G#ø7), I play 45677x, coz it’s so easy, although it lacks the 3rd. The half-diminished isn’t three stacked minor thirds - it’s two minor thirds and a major 3rd, so I guess you could also add Fø7, which looks like A#m6 (46646x), and Dø7, which is 43353x. But those are pretty weird. I don’t think you can play A#ø7 with a G# in the bass.

And finally Ab(aug) - 43211x - which is also C aug and E aug.

It’s probably quite a good exercise to go over these inversions, at least the common ones, and try and name the chords.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Good point , could probably set up an exercise in something like the Solo app
I was mainly going to use it for finding nice chords to go with melodies when trying to play what I hear in my head

guitarjack66 · March 2023

I have a music stand in front of me while I practice with a print out of all the major keys. It's just an A4 printed sheet readily available to print from the internet. It's just sat there for reference even though I tend to prefer remembering shapes but it's an easy reference.
If it wasn't so difficult to upload pictures on here then I'd upload it but I havent the time at present.

prowla · March 2023

Play the chord?
(Not necessarily a smartass comment - my mind works in shapes, not notation.)

hollywoodrox · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

I have a music stand in front of me while I practice with a print out of all the major keys. It's just an A4 printed sheet readily available to print from the internet. It's just sat there for reference even though I tend to prefer remembering shapes but it's an easy reference.
If it wasn't so difficult to upload pictures on here then I'd upload it but I havent the time at present.

It’s ok I have no problem with chords , just thought there might be an app that told you which specific note appeared in any number of possible chords .

eg I’ve played a melody and am looking for a chord containing Ab , I already have the melody but am looking for say an interesting chord to go over it . It needn’t even be diatonic As long as it contains the note and sounds good , I could even play it on guitar or on a synth .

I can see such a thing being useful for songwriters , would make a great app . I may mAke myself a small chart

viz · March 2023

the Circle of Fifths is also a great pic to help understand "congruent" chords that fit a home chord, or even a note. There's a version of it on a card with a sort of sliding window that also has the diminished chords as well as the minor chords. That might be really helpful.

digitalscream · March 2023

Lots of handy tools along those lines here:

https://jguitar.com/harmonizer/scale2chord

hollywoodrox · March 2023

viz said:

the Circle of Fifths is also a great pic to help understand "congruent" chords that fit a home chord, or even a note. There's a version of it on a card with a sort of sliding window that also has the diminished chords as well as the minor chords. That might be really helpful.

I did look at that , I find it easy to remember it backwards in 4ths

Evo · March 2023

I think it's probably a bit too involved to do comprehensively (unless you're Pat Metheney of course)

From a practical point of view, being able to cycle through your triads would be a helpful skill in this case (A C E G B D F A etc) but each note could potentially and theoretically be added in to any other chord. The trick is knowing what it's going to sound like when you add it in.

This is one of the main reasons I made a real effort to switch from note names to intervals when thinking about notes. Rather than looking at a note and thinking G#, I'll try to think "major third" or "flat 7th" depending on the context.

That way, rather than going through each and every note, learning which chords it goes in and how it fits, you only have to learn one set of intervals and how to locate them in relation to whatever root note you're currently visualising. Saves a lot of brain ache in the long run.

Keefy · March 2023

When I was teaching myself music theory many years ago I would sit on a bus reciting all the major scales in my head, and thinking of what scale degree each note was. So now if you ask me something like ‘F is the major third of what?’, the note Db will pop into my head without me even thinking about it. It’s exactly like when I learned multiplication tables as a kid. Those are the hard yards, but absolutely worth it in the long run.

Gizmo · March 2023

I devised a pretty easy method way back at music collage for chord building (30 years ago now!) im pretty sure someone else would have also discovered this method before then but i haven't dug about online or in any other ref books to check...

let see if i can explain this and hope the formating doesn't get messed up ...

First thing to do is learn you key sig sharp & flats (you'll see why in the 2nd example)

Take a sheet of paper and write out

C D E F G A B

to keep it simple i'll stay in C for now (no sharps or flats for diatonic chords) with the above note list you can start on C and just step over a letter to build any chord+ extenstiion

So C major

C D E F G A B

1 3 5

C major 7

C D E F G A B

1 3 5 7

Want the 9th of C (D) just carry on from the 7th and start cycle back contuining to step over a letter (or just write the sequence out again a step over a letter)

C D E F G A B

1 9 3 5 7

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B

1.....3.....5......7.....9

If you want the 11 th or 13th just keep going

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B

1....3.....5.....7.......9....11...13...

Then if you want to move keys and you know your key sigs just do the same but sharp/flat the letters for each sig, so D has 2 sharps F# and C#

C D E F# G A B

1 3 5

Once you worked with this system for a while and you know the formula you can build any chord you want in seconds, wont be long before you don't even need the paper.

GL

Formating is messing you the collums so do it on a sheeet of paper....

Toms_Dad · March 2023

If the problem is that the melody note is Ab, and you need a chord where that is the melody note, then perhaps take a look at Tim Lerch’s new book, The Melodic Jazz Chord Dictionary. It’s a reference designed to resolve just such an issue.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Gizmo said:

I devised a pretty easy method way back at music collage for chord building (30 years ago now!) im pretty sure someone else would have also discovered this method before then but i haven't dug about online or in any other ref books to check...

let see if i can explain this and hope the formating doesn't get messed up ...

First thing to do is learn you key sig sharp & flats (you'll see why in the 2nd example)

Take a sheet of paper and write out

C D E F G A B

to keep it simple i'll stay in C for now (no sharps or flats for diatonic chords) with the above note list you can start on C and just step over a letter to build any chord+ extenstiion

So C major

C D E F G A B

1     3     5

C major 7

C D E F G A B

1     3     5     7

Want the 9th of C (D) just carry on from the 7th and start cycle back contuining to step over a letter (or just write the sequence out again a step over a letter)

C D E F G A B

1 9 3    5     7

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B

1    3    5     7     9

If you want the 11 th or 13th just keep going

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B

1    3    5     7     9    11 13

Then if you want to move keys and you know your key sigs just do the same but sharp/flat the letters for each sig, so D has 2 sharps F# and C#

C D E F# G A B

   1     3       5

Once you worked with this system for a while and you know the formula you can build any chord you want in seconds, wont be long before you don't even need the paper.

GL

I can do this already . What I was looking for was something that could give me a list of chords that contained a specific note eg

F# is in

F# major
F# min
D Major
EbMin
Bb
Bb min
Esus4/9
D add 9
F#m7

etc etc

so I can take my melody containing F# & think oh I’ll try F# major over it , hmm a bit vanilla let’s be a bit saucy & try an Esus4/9 ,hmm no Let’s try a D major . But some sort of dictionary

I can build triads and 7ths and understand inversions . But for the sake of songwriting
some sort of Dictionary of what chords a specific note appears in would be invaluable for matching harmony chords to the melody in one’s head . I think I will make a basic chart
I have something similar with just basic major & minor on it so could probably build on that using my favourite types of chords Sus2 & Sus4 etc .

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Toms_Dad said:

If the problem is that the melody note is Ab, and you need a chord where that is the melody note, then perhaps take a look at Tim Lerch’s new book, The Melodic Jazz Chord Dictionary. It’s a reference designed to resolve just such an issue.

Thank you for this I will check it out

hollywoodrox · March 2023

I still think my home made chart will be best , an instant look at it will tell you the available chords
If I just keep it to Maj / Min / 7ths / sus2 / sus 4 etc .

guitarjack66 · March 2023

Gizmo said:

I devised a pretty easy method way back at music collage for chord building (30 years ago now!) im pretty sure someone else would have also discovered this method before then but i haven't dug about online or in any other ref books to check...

let see if i can explain this and hope the formating doesn't get messed up ...

First thing to do is learn you key sig sharp & flats (you'll see why in the 2nd example)

Take a sheet of paper and write out

C D E F G A B

to keep it simple i'll stay in C for now (no sharps or flats for diatonic chords) with the above note list you can start on C and just step over a letter to build any chord+ extenstiion

So C major

C D E F G A B

1     3     5

C major 7

C D E F G A B

1     3     5     7

Want the 9th of C (D) just carry on from the 7th and start cycle back contuining to step over a letter (or just write the sequence out again a step over a letter)

C D E F G A B
1 9 3    5     7

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1.....3.....5......7.....9

If you want the 11 th or 13th just keep going

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1....3.....5.....7.......9....11...13...

Then if you want to move keys and you know your key sigs just do the same but sharp/flat the letters for each sig, so D has 2 sharps F# and C#

C D E F# G A B

    1     3       5

Once you worked with this system for a while and you know the formula you can build any chord you want in seconds, wont be long before you don't even need the paper.

GL

Formating is messing you the collums so do it on a sheeet of paper....

Not wanting to sound like a smartarse because you obviously know far more theory than I ever will,but if I want to find the 9th,11th etc I would just add 7 to the note/interval in the scale/key? So the 9th would be the 2nd,the 11 would be the 4th etc.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

Gizmo said:

I devised a pretty easy method way back at music collage for chord building (30 years ago now!) im pretty sure someone else would have also discovered this method before then but i haven't dug about online or in any other ref books to check...

let see if i can explain this and hope the formating doesn't get messed up ...

First thing to do is learn you key sig sharp & flats (you'll see why in the 2nd example)

Take a sheet of paper and write out

C D E F G A B

to keep it simple i'll stay in C for now (no sharps or flats for diatonic chords) with the above note list you can start on C and just step over a letter to build any chord+ extenstiion

So C major

C D E F G A B

1     3     5

C major 7

C D E F G A B

1     3     5     7

Want the 9th of C (D) just carry on from the 7th and start cycle back contuining to step over a letter (or just write the sequence out again a step over a letter)

C D E F G A B
1 9 3    5     7

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1.....3.....5......7.....9

If you want the 11 th or 13th just keep going

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1....3.....5.....7.......9....11...13...

Then if you want to move keys and you know your key sigs just do the same but sharp/flat the letters for each sig, so D has 2 sharps F# and C#

C D E F# G A B

    1     3       5

Once you worked with this system for a while and you know the formula you can build any chord you want in seconds, wont be long before you don't even need the paper.

GL

Formating is messing you the collums so do it on a sheeet of paper....

Not wanting to sound like a smartarse because you obviously know far more theory than I ever will,but if I want to find the 9th,11th etc I would just add 7 to the note/interval in the scale/key? So the 9th would be the 2nd,the 11 would be the 4th etc.

Yes That’s how I understand it & you play it an octave higher

Tannin · March 2023

I reckon you are overthinking it, @hollywoodrox You already know the answers if you stop to look at it for a minute.

Let's take A as our note. You already know that it is the tonic of A, and you can play ANY A chord (A major, minor, 7th, diminished, sus 4, etc.)

You also know that it is the flat 2 of G# (which is not used all that often), and the 2nd of G - so G sus2, G add2, G minor add2, plus all those same things with a 7th or major 7th added, in which case we term them 9ths.

You know that it is the minor 3rd of F#, so all the F# minor chords, plus the chords which use both the major and minor 3rds at the same time, most commonly the one we call "F# sharp 9".

You know that it is the major 3rd of F ,,,, and so on up to the major 7th.

It is not practical to try to remember all that list - of which I've written out less than half, and for only one note out of the scale! But it is perfectly practical to spin through the options in your head saying "Let's see, I want to play an A here, so I can use it as the tonic, or a 3rd, or a 5th ... or what if I use it as a 7th? And so on. You don't even have to know what the chords are called - your fingers already know how to shape the chords, just play the chords you know which use (e.g.) the A on the 5th fret 6th string and when you find one you like, stop there. Only then, after you have chosen your chord, do you need to figure out what it is.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Thanks tannin I have actually made myself a little chart just as a quick reference . I was going to add augmented chords to it but then wondered if it was worth it as you tend to use them more like diminished chords to give movement from one chord to the next

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Well here’s my stab at a chart

Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgcq72eidsweznk/IMG_9029.jpeg?raw=1

Modellista · March 2023

This discussion is like three-way chicken and egg - what comes first, the melody note, the chord root note, or the harmonic character of the chord? As is apparent, any melody note can be played over any root note, but with widely varying harmonic results. It's all in the head of the composer, but I would suggest each cadence does have chords that fit better than others, particularly with the home key in mind.

Thinking aloud, perhaps we have a melody on the top string E G F# A, in the key of Em. The obvious harmonic choices are Em G F#m Am. If we stick to the notes in the key of Em, the charts above are useful to narrow down alternative chords.

The G melody note could be the m7 of A, or the 5th of C. (I don't fancy any of the others)
The F# melody note could be the maj7 of G of maj3 of D.
The A could be the 7th of B.

So using this concept the chord progression could be:

Em Am7 Gmaj7 B7 (heavy on the 7ths)
Em Am7 D B7
Em C Gmaj7 B7
Em C D B7

or you could re-substitute any of the root note chords if you like.

I do like this idea - although the relationship between root, chord and melody is something that happens subconsciously when composing anyway, it's nice to formalise it a bit.

By the way, the column for Dominant 7 is wrong from A onwards.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

Modellista said:

This discussion is like three-way chicken and egg - what comes first, the melody note, the chord root note, or the harmonic character of the chord? As is apparent, any melody note can be played over any root note, but with widely varying harmonic results. It's all in the head of the composer, but I would suggest each cadence does have chords that fit better than others, particularly with the home key in mind.

Thinking aloud, perhaps we have a melody on the top string E G F# A, in the key of Em. The obvious harmonic choices are Em G F#m Am. If we stick to the notes in the key of Em, the charts above are useful to narrow down alternative chords.

The G melody note could be the m7 of A, or the 5th of C. (I don't fancy any of the others)
The F# melody note could be the maj7 of G of maj3 of D.
The A could be the 7th of B.

So using this concept the chord progression could be:

Em Am7 Gmaj7 B7 (heavy on the 7ths)
Em Am7 D B7
Em C Gmaj7 B7
Em C D B7

or you could re-substitute any of the root note chords if you like.

I do like this idea - although the relationship between root, chord and melody is something that happens subconsciously when composing anyway, it's nice to formalise it a bit.

By the way, the column for Dominant 7 is wrong from A onwards.

Gosh darn it will have to look at that column

Cranky · March 2023

I always liked what Jacob Collier said. Any note can go with any other note(s). Harmony is about feeling and expression. The notes serve the harmony, and the harmony the feeling. (Melody and motif, I think, are subsets of harmony.)

That said, I don’t think any kind of chart or fretboard diagram will substitute for applied, focused experimenting and practice. It will become “second nature“ over time.

Even if you tend to play by shapes, e.g. know where the 5th is at all points and see how augmenting it feels. That’s the tricky part is keeping that feeling going by knowing where to go on the board.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

I’ve updated my chart ,it’s purely an aide for songwriting in the simplest form

viz · March 2023

Just a little rule of thumb here if anyone’s ever wondering whether to call something by its sharp or flat name:

Most major keys default to their flat version. B♭, E♭, A♭, D♭. Not A#, D#, G#, C#. The only exception is F# / G♭, where both will do. There’s literally six of one, half a dozen of the other

Similarly, most minor keys default to the sharp version. So F#m, C#m, G#m. Not G♭m, D♭m, A♭m. The only exceptions are B♭m, which is better than A#m, and D#m / E♭m where both will do.

To make it simpler, I’d go with:

Majors are flats, though F# is OK
Minors are sharps, but avoid A#m (and E♭m is ok)

The purpose of that is to minimise the use of accidentals and avoid double sharps or flats.

For example, B♭ major has two flats, but A# major would have A#, B#, C##, D#, E#, F##, G##.

With sus2 or sus4 chords, it doesn’t matter, as the 3rd is absent so you don’t know if it’s major or minor until it’s resolved. But for consistency I’d probably go with the major option throughout.

guitarjack66 · March 2023

Melody note? Excuse my ignorance but some terminology is still a bit confusing to me.

hollywoodrox · March 2023

guitarjack66 said:

Melody note? Excuse my ignorance but some terminology is still a bit confusing to me.

Like the notes you would whistle, sing or. Hum

viz · March 2023

hollywoodrox said:

guitarjack66 said:

Melody note? Excuse my ignorance but some terminology is still a bit confusing to me.

Like the notes you would whistle, sing or. Hum

Melody means tune. Harmony means chords.

Sometimes the harmony can contain the melody. Like in Giant Steps. Other times the Harmony is a backdrop over which the melody is sung / played. Like the verses in Hotel California.

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Is there a quick way to find out what note appears in which chords?

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