What is a "British" guitar? (upcoming NGD)

Tannin · March 2023

Kilgore said:

Tannin said:

PS: I am amazed at the stupid price of trains in the UK! Exeter to Settle is close to $800! (more than £400.) Strewth! OK, that's first class and there are ways to get discounts if you book early but not too early, nevertheless it is ridiculous. It's of no consequence to me as I have a Eurail Pass which gives me train travel (almost) anywhere in Europe on any 10 days I please, - and yes I checked, it does work in the UK - I'm just amazed at the crazy price.

First Class just guarantees you a seat.

The funny thing is that I paid $794 AUD for a 10-day Eurail pass. That gives me 10 days of free first class rail travel (almost) anywhere in Europe. It's actually cheaper than just buying a 1st class ticket from Exeter to Settle!

I imagined that the Eurail pass (which is only available to tourists) would be a subsidised thing designed to encourage people like me to visit and spend money on meals and hotels and stuff. But no - you can buy the equivalent Interrail pass (sold only to European citizens) for the same price.

Go figure.

Kittyfrisk · March 2023

^ Don't try to figure out why UK railways are as screwed up as they are, it'll take too long & you'll have a headache that you really don't want

guitarjack66 · March 2023

Kittyfrisk said:

^ Don't try to figure out why UK railways are as screwed up as they are, it'll take too long & you'll have a headache that you really don't want

Greed aka Privatisation is the simple answer.

PCT57 · March 2023

Brook make lovely instruments and a reasonable cost. English walnut would be a good choice for the back and sides. I have a Lamorna I like very much made from English Walnut with an Adirondack top and it's my favourite of the three Brooks I own. You can see my Lamorna a few times in this video in particular on the bench with Andy.

https://youtu.be/n_toW8yVF_Q

Have a great trip.

Phil

Ps I understand the Fylde waiting list to be 2- 3 years whereas Brook is usually 9 months or so but things could have changed.

Tannin · March 2023

Hi Phil. That is a nice, informative video. I've seen it before (as evidenced by my YT "like" button being already clicked) but quite a while back as I didn't really remember it.

After re-watching that I went wandering around on You-tube and found an even better video which you modestly didn't mention.

Unlike the majority of viewers, the rosewood Torridge would be my third choice (I've gone off the rosewood sound in recent years) and my favourite - by a narrow margin because they are both lovely - is the Lyn.

Lovely playing, by the way.

Mellish · March 2023

Very nice, I enjoyed listening to that.

Almost sent me to sleep - compliment

Tannin · March 2023

Tannin said:

my favourite - by a narrow margin because they are both lovely - is the Lyn.

Sorry, I was unclear @PCT57 ;By "both" I meant the Lyn and the Lamorna.

PCT57 · March 2023

Tannin said:

Hi Phil. That is a nice, informative video. I've seen it before (as evidenced by my YT "like" button being already clicked) but quite a while back as I didn't really remember it.

After re-watching that I went wandering around on You-tube and found an even better video which you modestly didn't mention.

Unlike the majority of viewers, the rosewood Torridge would be my third choice (I've gone off the rosewood sound in recent years) and my favourite - by a narrow margin because they are both lovely - is the Lyn.

Lovely playing, by the way.

Thanks very much. I hope you have a an enjoyable and successful trip.

Phil

Tannin · July 2023

Yesterday we drove down to Exeter and visited Project Music and played three Brooks. Lovely guitars. Lee was a fount on information and, for context, provided a number of other interesting instruments: a familiar Maton SRS-60 to calibrate my ears on, a Lakewood just for fun (loved it, quite different to the mahogany one I played in Hobart a few years ago, absolutely beautiful Alpine Spruce top), and of particular interest, two Irish guitars, both in cedar and Black Walnut - a Lowden and a McIlroy. Both lovely and very different, the Lowden especially impressed me with its rich, complex, but remarkably open sound.

As for the Brooks, yes very good stuff, all three different even though two of them were notionally the same (Lamornas in Englemann Spruce and rosewood).

I had several specific questions to answer for myself at Project Music. Not sure that I am any the wiser now. In fact I have even less idea of what I'm going to order on Monday than I did before. But it was great fun!

Today we float around Devon visiting national parks if it will only stop raining. Monday, off to Brook.

Teyeplayer · July 2023

Tannin said:

Today we float around Devon visiting national parks if it will only stop raining. Monday, off to Brook.

Enjoy it, God’s own county that.

Edit: it rains on Dartmoor 333 days per year, you might want to pop a raincoat on.

WafflesOnHorseback · July 2023

Tannin said:

Hi Phil. That is a nice, informative video. I've seen it before (as evidenced by my YT "like" button being already clicked) but quite a while back as I didn't really remember it.

After re-watching that I went wandering around on You-tube and found an even better video which you modestly didn't mention.

Unlike the majority of viewers, the rosewood Torridge would be my third choice (I've gone off the rosewood sound in recent years) and my favourite - by a narrow margin because they are both lovely - is the Lyn.

Lovely playing, by the way.

That is rather wonderful. Lovely sound and very musical playing.

Timcito · July 2023

My first ever 'good' guitar was British - it was a 000 cutaway in cedar and mahogany made by John Hullah, who had worked for Fylde before going solo. The style of guitar I bought was glowingly reviewed in Acoustic magazine in 1988, and I saw one in Forsyth's, Manchester, soon afterwards and bought it.

It was a great fingerstyle guitar and well suited to the what I was learning - classic fingerstyle ragtime. It was a guitar that really opened up, too. Some years after buying it and moving to a more humid climate, I became struck by how good it was sounding. I'd never thought it was a spectacular guitar, but then I did.

I live in the US now, but if I were in the UK, I wouldn't even look at US guitars. Britain has so many great builders whose stuff you can't get over here, so I would capitalize on that. Around ten years ago I was in Forsyth's and they had a wonderful OM in Sitka and maple built by Scottish Jimmy Moon. To this day, I regret not buying it and bringing it back to the US.

guitarjack66 · July 2023

Tannin said:

Yesterday we drove down to Exeter and visited Project Music and played three Brooks. Lovely guitars. Lee was a fount on information and, for context, provided a number of other interesting instruments: a familiar Maton SRS-60 to calibrate my ears on, a Lakewood just for fun (loved it, quite different to the mahogany one I played in Hobart a few years ago, absolutely beautiful Alpine Spruce top), and of particular interest, two Irish guitars, both in cedar and Black Walnut - a Lowden and a McIlroy. Both lovely and very different, the Lowden especially impressed me with its rich, complex, but remarkably open sound.

As for the Brooks, yes very good stuff, all three different even though two of them were notionally the same (Lamornas in Englemann Spruce and rosewood).

I had several specific questions to answer for myself at Project Music. Not sure that I am any the wiser now. In fact I have even less idea of what I'm going to order on Monday than I did before. But it was great fun!

Today we float around Devon visiting national parks if it will only stop raining. Monday, off to Brook.

As strange as it sounds,July is notorious for rain in the UK. I mean,it's not like it's the height of summer or anything is it!

Tannin · July 2023

Job's done.

I'm not much of a hand at typing on my ancient little laptop but briefly, I've ordered a Lyn.

Lyn (roughly 00 size)
European Spruce top (I picked one with a lovely hint of ripple in it)
3-piece back, walnut and Yew in the centre, walnut sides.
5-piece laminated walnut, yew and Sycamore neck (or European Maple if they prefer)
Bog Oak fretboard, bridge & headstock veneer
Gotoh tuners
Box briidge pins
45.5mm nut
650mm scale
12.5 fret neck-body join

Simon & Andy were a bit set back by the notion of a join not on an exact fret but came around to seeing the logic of it. They thought it would look as though they'd made a mistake, but I knew what I wanted.

A real pleasure to deal with them.

drofluf · July 2023

Great choice! I love my Lyn. Mine's similar but with walnut back and mahogany neck, but it sounds like you've achieved your objective of an English (mostly) guitar.

Now the waiting starts!

I'm curious - what's the thinking behind the 12.5 fret join?

Tannin · July 2023

Ahh, good question!

I wanted the tonal benefit of a 12-fret bridge placement but I find 12 fretters just a little too tight. Even an extra 10mm would make all the difference.

Meanwhile, the Lyn is a short scale instrument (630mm or Gibson scale) and I very much prefer long scale. So by putting a 650mm neck on a standard Lyn, we get the best off all worlds. Only Simon reckons he's going to go cross-eyed building it with the join in the wrong place.

.

As for the all-British plan, now that I've met European Spruce trees in person (over in Croatia where there is a lovely one growing right in front of my brother-in-law's house - not to mention others all over Austria and Slovenia), I am only too happy to have a bit of one in my British (part-European) guitar. Such a good-looking tree.

The waiting won't worry me. Think of it as nine more months of staying happily married.

digitalkettle · July 2023

drofluf said:

...I'm curious - what's the thinking behind the 12.5 fret join?

He was just testing to see if they were willing to alter all their plans/templates/jigs/whatnot

Tannin · July 2023

^ ha!

Actually, they are willing to do that and happily offered to do so. They seemed to think that was all in a day's work

However my scheme does not require any alteration of significance other than making the "wrong" neck. The body stays exactly the same. Same mould, same bracing, same bridge placement. It just promises to do their heads in when they get to mating the dovetail up.

digitalkettle · July 2023

Bonus points for finding the place (drove over there myself many years ago)!

Tannin · July 2023

^ I had a native driver/guide.

PCT57 · July 2023

Congratulations on the interesting order. I'll be looking forward to seeing it in the Brook news.

stufisher · July 2023

Great call @Timcito ; ... I'm also a fan of Moon guitars ... have been ever since I first saw Dougie MacLean live c.20 years ago.

Notwithstanding, well done @Tannin ; ... I'm sure you'll have many years of enjoyment from your bespoke design.

One day I might just flog a few guitars and order a custom-made guitar ... but not yet.

Timcito · July 2023

Tannin said:

Job's done.

I'm not much of a hand at typing on my ancient little laptop but briefly, I've ordered a Lyn.

Lyn (roughly 00 size)
European Spruce top (I picked one with a lovely hint of ripple in it)
3-piece back, walnut and Yew in the centre, walnut sides.
5-piece laminated walnut, yew and Sycamore neck (or European Maple if they prefer)
Bog Oak fretboard, bridge & headstock veneer
Gotoh tuners
Box briidge pins
45.5mm nut
650mm scale
12.5 fret neck-body join

Simon & Andy were a bit set back by the notion of a join not on an exact fret but came around to seeing the logic of it. They thought it would look as though they'd made a mistake, but I knew what I wanted.

A real pleasure to deal with them.

That sounds like a beautiful guitar!

Benm39 · July 2023

Congratulations @Tannin , that's going to be a really special instrument. I too look forward to seeing it featured in Brook newsletters. Keep us posted!

thomasross20 · July 2023

@Tannin the Lyn is the exact model I would have been getting if I pulled the trigger. Great spec.

Tannin · August 2023

Cheers all. I see that Pete (my native guide, chauffeur, and friend of many years standing) and I are in the Brook newsletter already. No guitar yet, just our smiling faces (which - for some reason I don't quite understand - look 40 years older than they did 40 years ago).

The yew in the neck was an interesting big. As mentioned a page or two earlier I wanted some yew to go with the bog oak fretboard. When I mentioned yew for the neck Simon immediately said "yes" but that it would need to be laminated with something. I'm not entirely sure why that is (I didn't want to waste their entire day with a zillion different questions) but one factor is that it would be difficult to find a bit that was long and thick and straight enough and I also got the impression that it wasn't structurally suitable on its own.

Anyway, laminated with walnut (which they do like as a neck timber) it will be fine, and with the light-coloured pinstripes of pale timber separating the darker yew and walnut laminations, it will look great. (I left it up to them whether to use Sycamore or European Maple for the pinstripes, depending on what bits they have handy at the time.) It will be my one and only laminated neck, by the way.

Given the finalised spec for the neck, it was an obvious step to echo it with the back and side materials - walnut, with yew up the centre, and maple or Sycamore trim.

It wound up being quite a long way away from the guitar(s) I had in mind in the first place, but that's fine. I reckon it will be a beauty.

guitarjack66 · August 2023

Why do guitarists tend to cringe at the word 'laminate' when so many good guitars have been laminated in the past? Is it because it is effectively a 'cheaper' option?

Tannin · August 2023

We need to distinguish here between a laminated neck and a laminated body. Completely different things.

A laminated neck is generally regarded as a high-end feature. It costs more to manufacture, and is (in theory) more stable. And of course it looks great. There is no effect worth mentioning on the sound quality. At its simplest, you take one bit of timber and split it up the middle. Then you reverse one of the pieces and glue them back together. Because the two parts are reversed with respect to one another, and tendency to bow (say) to the left from one part is exactly opposed by the other part which (of course) wants to bow right. Result: a very stable neck.

(You do exactly the same thing for all sorts of woodworking tasks. I'm no luthier but I can build a house no worries, and it is a standard technique to laminate key corner studs. Suppose you are making a house frame out of 4 x 2 pine studs. Pine tends to be crappy stuff at the best of times, prone to warping, twisting and bowing, but it's good enough for a house frame. Now you get to a corner or a door post. It obviously needs to be stronger than the 4 x 2 wall studs. Do you use heavier timber instead? Say an 8 x 6? No! Not only is that expensive, it is also prone to warping and twisting unless it's a very good bit of timber. Much better - and standard practice for any builder - is to use three bits of 4 x 2, nailed together in such a way that the warps and twists are opposed and want to even themselves out. Cheaper, plenty strong enough, and lasts forever without warping. This is effectively a laminate.)

So laminated necks are a high-end feature. Some builders never use anything else. On the other hand, it is perfectly possible to make a high-quality neck which won't warp or twist out of a single piece of timber just so long as you select a good, straight bit and season it properly.

So in the end, it's just a matter of taste and the builder's preference.

The best laminated necks (not necessarily the best lasting and certainly not the best sounding, just the best looking) use something like 5 pieces. My Brook is an example: it will be walnut on either side with yew running up the middle, and on either side of the yew a pair of thin maple or Sycamore strips like a pinstripe. Presumably that will add a bit to the cost, but probably not a great deal and it will look beautiful, especially as it will match the back.

Tannin · August 2023

A laminated body, on the other hand, is usually (but not always) a cheaper, generally inferior way to build a guitar. Certain very carefully considered and manufactured instruments excepted, a laminated back simply can't produce the same quality of sound you get from a good all-solid back. It starts out inferior and doesn't change much, where a solid back tends to get better with age.

Laminated backs, on the other hand, tend to produce a fairly OK sound so long as the top is half decent and are quite consistent. Think of them as being like tinned soup: they are never, ever going to earn a Michelin Star from anyone but at least they'll all be pretty much the same as each other and you (the guitar manufacturer) can churn out thousands and thousands of them without worrying too much about matching your construction to your timber. None of them (probably) will be truly awful, and none of them will be particularly good. Tinned soup.

Laminated sides are different. The sides have no real impact on the sound of the guitar, they are really just a way to hold the top and the back apart. You could make them out of anything. Quite a few high-end boutique makers (the people making guitars in the £8000 price bracket) use laminated sides because they are easier to bend, have no impact on the sound quality, and can be made as thick as you like, which helps add weight to the body. (Tops should pretty much always be light and backs mostly should be reasonably light (depending on the design) but heavy sides are often a very good thing. Some builders add weights to sides (glued onto the inside) as part of the process of fine-tuning the tone of a fine instrument.)

thomasross20 · August 2023

Hmm I thought as sound banged around inside the chamber, it hit off the sides so the sides were still important. Good writings!

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What is a "British" guitar? (upcoming NGD)

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