Learning to "Noodle"

BRISTOL86 · February 2023

So this will sound really strange as someone who has been around guitars for several years now, having had multiple on/off stints.

I'm coming back to things now after a long absence, and one thing that's always tripped me up is trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none - wanting to learn to do everything, all at once etc.

What I really want to do this time is start afresh, learning some solid fundamentals that will stand me in good stead.

I like bashing out a little riff of a song I like as much as anyone, but what I really want to work towards is being able to pick up a guitar and play something remotely musical sounding that isn't a John Mayer riff...

I'm assuming the starting point in all of this is becoming familiar with the minor pentatonic scale and starting there really? But any resources or tips much appreciated!

Grampa · February 2023

Interested to hear the replies to this, something I also struggle with. My acoustic teacher reckons it's because I have a very logical structured analytical approach to everything in life and can't function without a defined plan of action.

ArchtopDave · February 2023

Some/many on here might not like it, but learn some basic Music Theory... it's actually very valuable. The Minor Pentatonic is OK, but using chord tones/arpeggios will take you much further.

BillDL · February 2023

You can learn the patterns/shapes of every scale in the book but you will not gain much or any benefit from doing so UNLESS you understand how the scales are derived, what chords they take their notes from (or the reverse, what notes of the scales the chords are from), and what chords those scales sound good when played over. To gain the maximum benefit while learning each scale shape it is most useful to know where and how to play each type of chord in as many places as possible on the fretboard (the inversions). You can learn the shapes of those chord inversions, but to locate them properly you need to know where the root or tonic note of each chord shape is (i.e. on what string it lies). By extension, it's also very useful to know where the 3rd and 5th notes of the chord in a particular key are within each chord shape.

All these things can be learned concurrently, but if you start in the reverse as detailed above there are definitely some fundamentals that you need to know first to gain a better appreciation of what you are actually doing and why. To that end, i would say that you need to first understand what notes or degrees of a given scale a chord is constructed from (eg. C Major chord from a C Major scale - 1st, 3rd and 5th of the scale, or C Minor chord has a lowered or flattened 3rd). As you are learning the different chord inversions, it is highly beneficial to know where the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale are within that shape. A useful aid in discovering this is being able to fret any string at any fret and quickly find the 5th (think power chord), the octave, and the 3rd (think what note moves within a chord when you play a minor then a major chord in that key). You can do this by remembering chess-type moves, for example "next string up, 2 frets up" or "skip two strings, 2 frets up", and so on.

While you are discovering these chord shapes/inversions and the notes within them you are also discovering available arpeggios and partial scales using those notes, and as you begin to introduce the 6th and 7th chords you can start to see how those notes flavour different scales played over a chord sequence.

Jono111 · February 2023

Justin guitar has a course on chord theory and making music from it. Not sure if it is part of the free course though.

roberty · February 2023

Grampa said:

Interested to hear the replies to this, something I also struggle with. My acoustic teacher reckons it's because I have a very logical structured analytical approach to everything in life and can't function without a defined plan of action.

I was typified as the logical sibling with my sister being the creative one growing up. I learnt to read music early in life and am still more comfortable with composing or learning a composition than improvising. But I can noodle and improvise

I think the trick is to take ideas from what you learn and play about with them. So if a song has a new chord try incorporating it into your own progression. Or if you learn a lick switch learn it in different positions, or switch the rhythm up and play it in different styles. Try and think about the 'why' of what you're playing over and above the 'what'. Why did the person who wrote it make those decisions?

allen · February 2023

Talking of John Mayer I think I've seen a couple of his videos on this topic.

When you say noodling I'm not sure what you mean. When I noodle I play random SRV licks all around the fretboard. To a ten year old it sounds good, but it isn't really music.

The sort of noodling that I aspire to is that Mayer/Hendrix thing where they can play chords with embellishments or even just some single note stuff that implies a chord progression clearly.

The advice that I have seen on it goes along the lines of...have a click track going and follow it, then have a chord progression in mind (say C, Am, F, G) and then locate some triads for each of those chords around the neck.

When playing single note lines follow either the major or minor pentatonic between those chords and make sure to land on either the root or the 3rd at key moments (i.e. the 1 of the bar)

I can do it, but slowly! and with a little bit of pre-planning.

Think of the Mayer song 'Waiting on the world to Change' like this

digitalkettle · February 2023

allen said:

Talking of John Mayer I think I've seen a couple of his videos on this topic…

I think the OP was talking of NOT John Mayer

CaseOfAce · February 2023

digitalkettle said:

allen said:

Talking of John Mayer I think I've seen a couple of his videos on this topic…

I think the OP was talking of NOT John Mayer

Erm... well..
No disrespect to the OP but if I could play half as good as John Mayer... I'd be quite happy.

Remarkable player - not least because he was able to make a decent fist of being Jerry's stand-in with the Grateful Dead. That's no mean feat.
I can play "pentatonics" - but there's a clear difference between me doing it and the pro's (and we're talking Clapton, Mayer, Young, Moore etc...) - and in a blind test - I'd be found out very quickly.
why? PHRASING - and the ability to piece together melodic parts into a whole that tells a story.

OP - what do you mean by "musical sounding" ?

Roland · February 2023

BRISTOL86 said:

… what I really want to work towards is being able to pick up a guitar and play something remotely musical sounding that isn't a John Mayer riff...

I'm assuming the starting point in all of this is becoming familiar with the minor pentatonic scale and starting there really?

Almost everybody starts with the minor pentatonic. It suits the way the guitar is tuned. The question is where you go from there. I’d suggest that you do several things in parallel. Eventually you will want to know some scales, some arpeggios (which are extended scales with larger gaps), and some chords (which are selected scale note played at the same time). You will also want to be able to hear a note and play it on your guitar. Learning either of these four in isolation is dry and boring and, apart from ear training, doesn’t lead towards the goal of being able to play “something remotely musical sounding”.

Instead I’d propose that you learn all four at the same time, and consolidate as you go by learning songs which use what you’re learning.

Example: to your minor pentatonic add the second note of the minor scale, which is two frets (semitones) up from the first note. You’ve now got the notes for the Satisfaction riff. You can work it out by ear, play the song on one string, work it out across two strings, train all four fingers to play the the riff on both one and two strings, play around with slides and hammer-ons and pull-offs … and you’re only using three notes. Then you work out, or look up, the chords which you’d use to accompany the song.

Next you add another note: the sixth of the minor scale. Actually there are several versions of the minor scale. The one you want is Aeolian eg https://www.guitarscale.org/e-aeolian.html. Repeat the process. There are loads of songs which use the Aeolian. When I was at this stage everyone used House of the Rising Sun. If you record yourself you can hear what you’re playing, and correct your timing and dynamics. You can also noodle over the playback, listening to what works and what doesn’t.

From there you go Dorian minor, Melodic minor, Major, Mixolydian. Each time you’re using a different note in conjunction with what you already know. How long it takes depends on how much time you have. Even in my schoolboy days, when I had more time than any other point in my life, each step took between a couple of weeks and months to explore fully.

BRISTOL86 said:
… any resources or tips much appreciated!

Don’t learn riffs, scales or arpeggios in isolation. I’ve had two days at the Guitar Show listening to people playing those faster than their brains could follow, and none of it sounded remotely musical. Practice everything in relation to songs.

BluesLover · February 2023

I can thoroughly recommend this course https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/get-htjba/

Rocker · February 2023

Songs. The guitar is a wonderful instrument to back a vocalist. Learn the song from beginning to the end, intro, outro, lead breaks etc. Your playing will mean something then. One song per week or month as you deem necessary. Enjoy the ride.......

BRISTOL86 · February 2023

Thanks all, some really good bits and pieces to pick up from these replies and plenty to dig into!

CaseOfAce said:

digitalkettle said:

allen said:

Talking of John Mayer I think I've seen a couple of his videos on this topic…

I think the OP was talking of NOT John Mayer

OP - what do you mean by "musical sounding" ?

Yeah that’s pretty vague I know!

I guess what I mean is that the ultimate goal is to be able to pick up a guitar and make some sounds with it on demand that aren’t either

a) someone else’s riff; or

b) something rehearsed and practiced where I am mentally saying ‘right, it’s this fret, then this fret, then this fret’….etc, does that make any sense at all?

To just be able to pick up the instrument and ‘mess around’ but have it sound good to the average someone who might be listening. A good case in point is the sheer paralysis I experience going into a guitar shop and having not a clue what on earth to do, because once I’m out of my comfort blanket of playing a pre rehearsed John Mayer riff, I’m drowning

stickyfiddle · February 2023

Melody melody melody melody. It's not at all about knowing scales and licks, which is how most guitarists seem to think and why most guitarists are dull as shit.

You need 3 skills:
1 - the ability to invent melodies in your head - this is completely independent of playing them on a musical instrument. You can practise this everywhere, all the time. Especially in the car or shower or while cooking or walking the dog or whatever. Hum, sing, scat, get a kazoo. Anything at all will work

2 - the ability to play something that is in your head on a guitar. This is where knowing scales and arpeggios and patterns can help because you'll hear a melody (real or imagined) and recognise those audio patterns and be able to translate them into shapes on the guitar. But mostly it's about hard graft of transcribing things note for note and not allowing yourself to be satisfied with "close enough".

3 - the ability to do 1 and 2 simultaneously. QED. This comes with practice.

FWIW after 20+ years I'm really good at this but I still clam up in a guitar shop half the time.

Kilgore · February 2023

BRISTOL86 said:

Thanks all, some really good bits and pieces to pick up from these replies and plenty to dig into!

CaseOfAce said:

digitalkettle said:

allen said:

Talking of John Mayer I think I've seen a couple of his videos on this topic…

I think the OP was talking of NOT John Mayer

OP - what do you mean by "musical sounding" ?

Yeah that’s pretty vague I know!

I guess what I mean is that the ultimate goal is to be able to pick up a guitar and make some sounds with it on demand that aren’t either

a) someone elses riff;

b) something rehearsed and practiced where I am mentally saying ‘right, it’s this fret, then this fret, then this fret’….etc, does that make any sense at all?

To just be able to pick up the instrument and ‘mess around’ but have it sound good to the average someone who might be listening. A good case in point is the sheer paralysis I experience going into a guitar shop and having not a clue what on earth to do, because once I’m out of my comfort blanket of playing a pre rehearsed John Mayer riff, I’m drowning

Every riff is someone else's. There's nothing new under the sun.

As a starting point, go back to basics, listen to some of the older blues players. They all had their bag of tricks in terms of licks, riffs, etc, but were able to put it together into something melodic and "musical" (actual songs!) while often playing fairly basic stuff in the 1 4 5 format. Sometimes less is more.

BluesLover · February 2023

"As a starting point, go back to basics, listen to some of the older blues players. They all had their bag of tricks in terms of licks, riffs, etc, but were able to put it together into something melodic and "musical" (actual songs!) while often playing fairly basic stuff in the 1 4 5 format. Sometimes less is more" this is exactly what the course I've recommended above covers.

BRISTOL86 · February 2023

Thanks again, all!

MrTee · February 2023

Jack who demos for Peach comes to mind when I think of great noodling, but that's doing him a disservice. Never seems to play the same thing twice, not really recognisable as any songs I'm familiar with but really musical and with plenty of feel.

EricTheWeary · February 2023

There’s a Jim Campilongo thing where he talks about providing simple approaches to improvisation using just a minor pentatonic. Singing a phrase and then trying to play it, trying to convey an emotion or trying to sound like someone else - having John Mayer or Albert King or whoever in your head and trying to get your fingers to match. You can take a lick you know and try to find variations - where to add/ not add vibrato, rakes, change the minor and major thirds around, play the sixth instead of the dominant seventh, what do you have to do to make that lick work over each chord in a progression,etc,etc.

This won’t get you through the jazz programme at Berkeley but it might help get something more musical out of simple shapes. Once this stuff is under your fingers you can noodle away at the back of GuitarGuitar.

Roland · February 2023

Here’s a useful exercise: play along with music on the TV. It teaches you to find the right key by ear, and select notes which work over the backing. It can also break you out of 120 bpm or whatever speed you naturally play at.

RickLucas · February 2023

Learning intervals helps.

BillDL · February 2023

Roland said:

Here’s a useful exercise: play along with music on the TV. It teaches you to find the right key by ear, and select notes which work over the backing. It can also break you out of 120 bpm or whatever speed you naturally play at.

That is exactly what I used to do when I was 17/18 and just starting out. It used to drive my parents nuts. I had a tiny basic headphone amp (built from a kit through one of the guitar magazines I used to buy) and I used to sit with one ear open listening to the TV and one ear listening to the guitar. At the start it was really useful for being able to figure out the key as quickly as possible, especially music that has more of a "tonal centre" with "outside chords" than being in a distinct key. I used adverts as a bit of a challenge to try and hear where the I, II(m), III(m), IV, V(7), VI(m) chords fell and figure out the chord progression before the advert finished. The next time it came on I would try and figure out the melody. As I went on and learned more chord inversions and scales and became familiar with how melodies in movie soundtracks or advert jingles worked against the chord movement I found that I was starting to improvise with bends or slides up to the target notes. It's a very useful exercise to listen to the radio and try to figure out elements of the next song that comes on, whether or not it is music that you would normally listen to. Old shows used to have quite long sections of the theme music at the start and end that were useful for trying to hone in on the melody and hear what works and what clashes. Even if the chord sequence is pretty complex you can often improvise along with it on a few different levels, from finding the bass movement and improvising to that or just picking out the single string melody and embellishing it a bit.

BRISTOL86 · February 2023

MrTee said:

Jack who demos for Peach comes to mind when I think of great noodling, but that's doing him a disservice. Never seems to play the same thing twice, not really recognisable as any songs I'm familiar with but really musical and with plenty of feel.

I know of his videos, and god yeah, you’ve hit the nail on the head there with what I’d love to be able to do haha.

guitarjack66 · March 2023

BillDL said:

Roland said:

Here’s a useful exercise: play along with music on the TV. It teaches you to find the right key by ear, and select notes which work over the backing. It can also break you out of 120 bpm or whatever speed you naturally play at.

That is exactly what I used to do when I was 17/18 and just starting out. It used to drive my parents nuts. I had a tiny basic headphone amp (built from a kit through one of the guitar magazines I used to buy) and I used to sit with one ear open listening to the TV and one ear listening to the guitar. At the start it was really useful for being able to figure out the key as quickly as possible, especially music that has more of a "tonal centre" with "outside chords" than being in a distinct key. I used adverts as a bit of a challenge to try and hear where the I, II(m), III(m), IV, V(7), VI(m) chords fell and figure out the chord progression before the advert finished. The next time it came on I would try and figure out the melody. As I went on and learned more chord inversions and scales and became familiar with how melodies in movie soundtracks or advert jingles worked against the chord movement I found that I was starting to improvise with bends or slides up to the target notes. It's a very useful exercise to listen to the radio and try to figure out elements of the next song that comes on, whether or not it is music that you would normally listen to. Old shows used to have quite long sections of the theme music at the start and end that were useful for trying to hone in on the melody and hear what works and what clashes. Even if the chord sequence is pretty complex you can often improvise along with it on a few different levels, from finding the bass movement and improvising to that or just picking out the single string melody and embellishing it a bit.

This just shows how much groundwork us late learners have missed out on. I'm sure this kind of stuff was priceless and enabled you to perform at gigs and stuff much sooner than if you'd followed a more academic or methodical route alone?

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