Reading music while playing

TheMadMick · February 2023

Folks, I hope this is not as silly as it sounds but I have a problem:

I play flute and can read treble clef quite fluently. However, at 74 the body position for the flute is taxing so I resolved to do the same on the guitar. In other words, play the tune - usually as a lead in to singing. I am quite a competent chord player but I can't seem to get the same fluency and fluidity with single notes. I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be. I often end up learning the tune off by rote but the problem is, one wrong note (which is really easy to do while trying to pick up the rhythm) and the whole sequence is screwed.

Please be aware that I usually play up the neck on D, G, B & E strings to take the sound out of the range of the other guitarists who usually play cowboy chords.

Anyone got any helpful suggestions other than "keep at it"?

axisus · February 2023

It's a boring answer but I have always found that playing anything without looking just comes from practice.

thecolourbox · February 2023

Yeah boring answer incoming from here as well - I can sight read 2 or 3 staff piano or organ music to a very good level, but guitar reading takes a lot more looking up and down between the page and my fretting fingers. It's just muscle memory pretty much (and admittedly piano lends itself to that being very logically laid out and every instance of intervals across the octaves etc being the same distances apart etc.

Practice practice practice

(or, my workaround is that I play guitar more by ear than from the notation)

JonnyBgoode · February 2023

TheMadMick said:

Folks, I hope this is not as silly as it sounds but I have a problem:

I play flute and can read treble clef quite fluently. However, at 74 the body position for the flute is taxing so I resolved to do the same on the guitar. In other words, play the tune - usually as a lead in to singing. I am quite a competent chord player but I can't seem to get the same fluency and fluidity with single notes. I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be. I often end up learning the tune off by rote but the problem is, one wrong note (which is really easy to do while trying to pick up the rhythm) and the whole sequence is screwed.

Please be aware that I usually play up the neck on D, G, B & E strings to take the sound out of the range of the other guitarists who usually play cowboy chords.

Anyone got any helpful suggestions other than "keep at it"?

Yes there are a couple of other things you can do when sight reading guitar, which *is* difficult, and a lot harder than sight reading flute. Here are a few things that helped me towards my grade 8 - sight reading was my weakest area and the scores at that level are really tough.

'I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be'

-Yes that can throw you off, try placing your music stand in your line of sight just above the fretboard of the guitar, so that minimum eye movement and no head turning is required to glance from the page to your fingers.. Obviously your should try and minimise these.

'I often end up learning the tune off by rote but the problem is, one wrong note (which is really easy to do while trying to pick up the rhythm) and the whole sequence is screwed'

-Never sacrifice rhythm to get a correct note, always follow the rhythm of the score and read ahead, tapping your foot etc, so if you drop a note you keep going in time. and can pick up. Rhythm is king.

'Please be aware that I usually play up the neck on D, G, B & E strings to take the sound out of the range of the other guitarists who usually play cowboy chords.'

Ok, well be surgical in your practice. take unseen pieces of music with melodies that can be played in 1st position (flute pieces are good!), but restrict yourself to fifth position (covering frets 5-8), for the piece, then do the same at position 8.

-

viz · February 2023

Great advice above.

A question: Can you sight-sing tunes, or do you only discover the tune when your fingers land on the frets / flute keys?

If you’re a chorister and the former comes really easy to you, then it’s just a question of practising how to play tunes that are in your mind’s ear (without written music in front of you). Because the ‘notes-on the page’ to ‘sounds in your brain’ link is already strong. Any old toons will do. Practise getting to the stage where you can play any tune that you know, with your eyes shut. Then, notes on the page, to sounds in your brain, to positions of your fingers, will be smooth. I’d call this “relative playing” because you’re just trying to get intervallic distances right, with no worry about absolute position up the neck. After all, many tunes, especially those written for voice, have large sections of scalar notes and small intervals. It’s the short-cut way if you can already sight-sing, just to get you out of a hole.

If the latter, then I think you’ve got the hard task of learning where the notes are on the fretboard. Their absolute positions. I’d start with tunes in similar keys. Doesn’t matter which key set you start with, because you’re playing up the neck, but get familar with a bunch of tunes in, say, E, D and B. Or C, G and D. Or Bb, Eb and F, for example. This is so that you cut down the variety of sharps and flats to contend with. Learn where the notes are for your chosen cluster - the tonics, the dominants, the major 3rds, the leading notes, and so on. Concentrate on one cluster till you’ve nailed it. In parallel with that, make sure you can say aloud any and every note on the staff - read tunes aloud in your chosen key cluster, speaking the name of each note as it comes. Soon you’ll find you start to tag blobs on paper with their respective positions on the guitar.

Both methods are mutually supportive, so even if you are a brilliant sight singer, you probably should do the 2nd difficult stage too, and vice versa, but life is short.

guitarjack66 · February 2023

Wait until you learn all the right chords,but play them in the wrong order!

viz · February 2023

That too, obviously

TheMadMick · February 2023

Thanks for the advice guys. Looks like a lot more work for me. One thing I found last night (and I had the same problem early on with the flute) is that I tend to learn the tune off pat then try and read the music and get lost. A very real PAIN!!

dazzer22 · March 2023

TheMadMick said:

Folks, I hope this is not as silly as it sounds but I have a problem:

I play flute and can read treble clef quite fluently. However, at 74 the body position for the flute is taxing so I resolved to do the same on the guitar. In other words, play the tune - usually as a lead in to singing. I am quite a competent chord player but I can't seem to get the same fluency and fluidity with single notes. I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be. I often end up learning the tune off by rote but the problem is, one wrong note (which is really easy to do while trying to pick up the rhythm) and the whole sequence is screwed.

Please be aware that I usually play up the neck on D, G, B & E strings to take the sound out of the range of the other guitarists who usually play cowboy chords.

Anyone got any helpful suggestions other than "keep at it"?

I don't think i have ever seen a guitarist sight read on a gig and i don't sight read when playing guitar, I know a piano player and even a drummer who can both sight reads and counts beats, but for the life of my why anyone would want to do that on guitar i don't know.

Blueingreen · April 2023

I have some of these issues as well.

I very unexpectedly landed up in a swing band. That means I have to play from charts because the arrangements are too complicated to memorise. I had absolutely no experience of reading charts before joing this band.

The issue that resonates with me is this:

JonnyBgoode said

'I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be'

-Yes that can throw you off, try placing your music stand in your line of sight just above the fretboard of the guitar, so that minimum eye movement and no head turning is required to glance from the page to your fingers.. Obviously your should try and minimise these.

My problem isn't that the parts are hard - apart from a bit of getting up to speed on the faster songs, technically what I'm doing (a lot of it is Freddie Green style stuff) isn't difficult. It isn't really a reading problem either: I have to put in a fair bit of prep, but I get to the point where I can read most of the charts quite fluently (although in truth I'm using the charts more as a reminder - I'm not sight reading them). There's not much single note stuff and what there is is easy.

By far the biggest risk of mistakes (ie dropping out for a few bars) is that I look at my fingers and lose my place in the chart. I've played for decades glancing at the fretboard when I need to and it's deeply ingrained and a tough habit to break. I'm getting better at not looking but sometimes I just have to.

I'm interested in this suggestion because it looks such a good idea and it had not occurred to me. What I'm not so sure about is:

1. Can it work if you play standing up? and

2. Even if it does, doesn't it mean you're staring down the way all the time, which isn't the best look?

Any thoughts?

JonnyBgoode · April 2023

Blueingreen said:

The issue that resonates with me is this:

JonnyBgoode said

'I often need to look at the fretboard to get my fingers where they should be'

-Yes that can throw you off, try placing your music stand in your line of sight just above the fretboard of the guitar, so that minimum eye movement and no head turning is required to glance from the page to your fingers.. Obviously your should try and minimise these.

By far the biggest risk of mistakes (ie dropping out for a few bars) is that I look at my fingers and lose my place in the chart. I've played for decades glancing at the fretboard when I need to and it's deeply ingrained and a tough habit to break. I'm getting better at not looking but sometimes I just have to.

I'm interested in this suggestion because it looks such a good idea and it had not occurred to me. What I'm not so sure about is:

1. Can it work if you play standing up? and
2. Even if it does, doesn't it mean you're staring down the way all the time, which isn't the best look?

Any thoughts?

1. Yes whether you are sitting or standing makes no difference, if the music is situated just above your hand in your line of sight there is a tiny eye movement involved. The other thing is that you should always be 'reading ahead' of what you are actually playing, so that glances at your fingers do not immediately throw you off. I should say though, I am not a jazz player, but an (ex) classical player, so I am looking at this from a sight reading perspective (staff notation, single notes and chords) and what I was taught, as opposed to reading rhythm charts.

2. Put your music stand higher? But yes, the best solution is to have it memorised and not need any sheets at all, or have the sheet music as a backup. This is simply a practical, physical arrangement that puts head movement to zero and eye movement minimal, if you are relying on sheet music.

Blueingreen · April 2023

To be honest it's just too much to memorize. It's a band that will only ever play a handful of gigs a year. I actually tried to memorise everything for the first gig and didn't do too badly for a first gig, but when the next one came along a couple of months later I realised I'd forgotten a huge amount of what I'd learned for the first one and would have another massive task to re-memorize everything. At that point I just reluctantly accepted I would have to work from charts.

(A lot of this is to do with the nature of what you're trying to remember. I've played gigs where I've played a number of pretty chunky solos note for note from memory. That's very doable because you're talking about the kind of melodic material that starts to stick in your mind by the time you learn it. You might have to refresh your memory if you haven't played it for a while, but run through it a few times and it's there. Whereas these swing rhythm parts have far less stickability because there are loads of very subtle variations and what the guitar is playing often doesn't make a lot of sense on its own. The actual amount of material you have to remember might even be less, it's just a lot less memorable).

Brad · April 2023

@Blueingreen

Much like yourself I play in a swing/jive band that maybe does no more than 20 gigs a year at most. Like you say, the songs aren’t difficult per se, but I never gig it enough for them to properly sink in, and then new songs always get added anyway.

What is your chord vocab/voicing leading like?

sev112 · April 2023

I play a lot of Spanish /classical and finger style solo stuff that involves a lot of reading

Q do you mean first time sight reading or Reading a piece you’ve played before but haven’t memorised ?

anyway I find I only play classical etc in 3 or 4 positions : Root, 2nd fret, 5th fret and 7th fret for 90% of the time

I didn’t plan it this way, but many fingering patterns for solo lines in those positions are the CAGED pattens. Or if you don’t want learn the CAgED positions, the patterns are usually the same

onky frustrating thing is that many classical pieces have 2 or 3 flats or 4 sharps, but you don’t tend to get that with popular music

Blueingreen · April 2023

Brad said:

@Blueingreen

Much like yourself I play in a swing/jive band that maybe does no more than 20 gigs a year at most. Like you say, the songs aren’t difficult per se, but I never gig it enough for them to properly sink in, and then new songs always get added anyway.

What is your chord vocab/voicing leading like?

In this band I'm playing pretty basic "Freddie Green" style rhythm on most of the old-school swing stuff. An extensive chord vocabulary isn’t really relevant, it’s mainly shell voicings avoiding upper extensions. Maintain a four in the bar pulse and stay out of the way of the piano.

This would probably be a bit too old fashioned if we were playing instrumental music, but I’ve checked out some recent recordings by name singers doing American songbook/swing stuff, people who can afford to hire the best, and they seem to stick to the old school FG approach, albeit with a slightly more modern guitar sound.

DannyP · April 2023

You could try the Sight to Sound book by Leon White.

It's a learning system specifically designed for guitarists to find the notes on the fretboard.

Downside is that the exercises are melodic nonsense designed to stop you just 'learning the tune' so practice can be a bit of a joyless slog!

Brad · April 2023

Blueingreen said:

Brad said:

@Blueingreen

Much like yourself I play in a swing/jive band that maybe does no more than 20 gigs a year at most. Like you say, the songs aren’t difficult per se, but I never gig it enough for them to properly sink in, and then new songs always get added anyway.

What is your chord vocab/voicing leading like?

In this band I'm playing pretty basic "Freddie Green" style rhythm on most of the old-school swing stuff. An extensive chord vocabulary isn’t really relevant, it’s mainly shell voicings avoiding upper extensions. Maintain a four in the bar pulse and stay out of the way of the piano.

This would probably be a bit too old fashioned if we were playing instrumental music, but I’ve checked out some recent recordings by name singers doing American songbook/swing stuff, people who can afford to hire the best, and they seem to stick to the old school FG approach, albeit with a slightly more modern guitar sound.

Is there any way you can borrow the charts and simply spend a bit of time ironing out any bits that are giving you grief?

No you don’t need an extensive chord vocab, (that means different things to different people) but you need enough to not have to look at your fingers and then get lost in the chart, which if I understand correctly is the problem you’ve got.

More often than not we have an available shape right under our fingers with very little movement required, negating the need to look at our fingers and risk getting lost in the chart. But it’s about working on inversions and voice leading. Only you know where you are with that and if that’s contributing to any issues you’re having. In my case I’m often the only harmony instrument so it’s worth my time getting that stuff together.

The Freddie Green style is as much about the the rhythm/feel/drive so even if you have to miss any chords, but can keep track of where you are in the chart and keep the momentum going it’ll be fine.

There was a great story from Allen Hinds, where he was doing a big band session for Warner Bros. He got lost within a few bars, panicked and just chugged muted strings FG style throughout. The recording turned out great and the MD praised his rhythm chops. I think there’s a lesson there for all of us

Blueingreen · April 2023

I think I'm doing most of these things and progressively reducing my need to look at my fingers, but I haven't been able to avoid a certain amount of tricky bits or fretboard leaps where I need to glance at my hands. Of course some people are better at playing without glancing at the fretboard than others, playing by feel. To some players it seems to come very easily, but others have worked hard to get there. People who sing and play and sight readers have to develop these skills, but I rarely sing and prior to this band didn't perform while reading and I've never put in the work.

Brad · April 2023

You’re winning then

It sounds like it’s a case of putting the hard yards in with it, having some strategies in place for those tricky moments.

I would definitely advocate working on inversions, even on just 7th chords. Getting drop2 voicings on strings 1-4 and 2-5 and drop3 on 2346 will really help finding the closest available chords so you’re not worrying about having to leap around… unless it’s unavoidable. Without knowing the bits that are troubling you it’s difficult to properly help. Any particular passages?

Blueingreen · April 2023

Brad said:

You’re winning then

It sounds like it’s a case of putting the hard yards in with it, having some strategies in place for those tricky moments.

I would definitely advocate working on inversions, even on just 7th chords. Getting drop2 voicings on strings 1-4 and 2-5 and drop3 on 2346 will really help finding the closest available chords so you’re not worrying about having to leap around… unless it’s unavoidable. Without knowing the bits that are troubling you it’s difficult to properly help. Any particular passages?

It's partly a question of how much time I want to spend on this. It's currently 4-6 gigs a year and it's an area of playing that's not central to my interests as a musician/guitarist. I'm a huge fan of the music, I just never imagined I'd ever play it.

If this band stopped playing I'm pretty sure I'd never play FG style again. I've dabbled in small band jazz stuff in the past so I have a basic understanding of small band comping that I could work on getting back up to speed, but obviously that's a very different kettle of fish. Freer rhythmically, playing a lot of upper extensions, playing in a higher register. Frankly I think trying to incorporate some of that into what I'm doing with the swing band would be complicating matters when what I actually want is to simplify them.

Snags · April 2023

Are you hoping to sight read, or to learn the basics of the tune and have the score as an aide memoire/guide/reason why you don't need to learn it by memory?

If you actually want to sight read it, do you need to? I mean, it's obviously a very useful skill, but unless you're doing session work or playing in a context where someone is going to chuck sheet music at you cold with no notice, you almost certainly don't need to do that.

I was taught classical piano, so can read music, but very rarely use that on guitar. For quite a few years I played in church bands where I'd end up filling in on bass (because guitar and bass are the same, right?) and for hymns/songs with a proper bass line I'd use the music, but the only time I'd be sight reading would be the first time it was done in rehearsal (and if I knew it was coming up I'd have a sneaky look in advance).

If your problem is one of finding the right notes in the position you're playing, then the only real solution is the boring one of practice, and of learning the notes on the fretboard thoroughly, not just patterns (which I'm still pretty lazy at).

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