12-fret cutaway

thomasross20 · February 2023

Who has one....

ToneControl · February 2023

Me, but you know that already

Sounds like you have GAS again?

thomasross20 · February 2023

I know, it's ridiculous...
Still dying to hear sound clip of that.
Really enjoying the feel of 12 fret and feel with cutaway would be very awesome. Do you favour that one over others?

malcolmkindness · February 2023

I have a luthier built 12 fret archtop with a cutaway.

thomasross20 · February 2023

Guys - please feel free to add pics, sound clips and your take on these instruments as keen to hear

Tannin · February 2023

Not quite on-topic here @thomasross20 but maybe close enough to be of interest. So I'll trust to your good nature and stick this in your thread rather than start another.

I'm a bit taken with the notion of a 12-fret though I've never owned one and hardly ever played one. I don't play up the neck much but I do slip past the 12th fret for the odd song and I'm not sure how well I'd manage that on a 12 fret guitar.

I mildly dislike cutaways but it might be necessary for a 12-fret. I also dislike short scales. So one idea I'm thinking over is to order a standard 12 fret model without cutaway (parlour or single-0, something small), but with a full-length neck. In other words, leave the bridge in the centre of the lower bout (which after all is the main point of a 12-fretter) but let the neck extend as far as it needs to in order to produce a standard 650mm scale. If I have the sums right, that would result in a 13 1/8th fret guitar (assuming we start with something like a Brook Clyst which normally has 630mm scale).

I reckon that would provide the sonic benefits of a 12-fretter coupled with the crispness and better string separation of a full-length scale, give me just enough room to play the small number of things I use the upper frets for, and avoid the need for a cutaway. It seems just about perfect to me ... which probably means I haven't though it through properly.

GTC · February 2023

ToneControl said:

Me, but you know that already

Sounds like you have GAS again?

Ditto (the Avalon sinker redwood / bog oak lefty)

.... and you had one too briefly (Terry Pack parlour)

thomasross20 · February 2023

Yes the Terry Pack with Florentine cutaway was almost the perfect guitar. I think I need a small body 12 fret with Florentine cutaway, basically... That one just didn't do it for me.

How are you getting on with your 12 fret Avalon.. link to thread again?

@Tannin good point re extended neck and note grunt as 12 fretter usually warmer but I sort of like that and I think paired with typically harder woods, makes those woods potentially more palatable to the ear. The other benefit, for me, of 12 fret to body as-is.. is that the resting arm position for the cowboy chords feels so much more natural. But it's a struggle to play past 12th fret without cutaway. I actually think if I got a 12-fret Venetian cutaway OO, it might be the only guitar I need.

thomasross20 · February 2023

ToneControl · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

I know, it's ridiculous...
Still dying to hear sound clip of that.
Really enjoying the feel of 12 fret and feel with cutaway would be very awesome. Do you favour that one over others?

I have 2, both sound great
The cutaway does not seem to affect the sound adversely

PCT57 · February 2023

I've got a Brook Lyn with a cutaway. Here it is with me using a pick rather than my usual fingerstyle.

https://youtu.be/LJ82uo_dNwU

Phil

Mellish · February 2023

@PCT57 ; nice-looking, little guitar, sounds good too. Have a wis.

GTC · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Yes the Terry Pack with Florentine cutaway was almost the perfect guitar. I think I need a small body 12 fret with Florentine cutaway, basically... That one just didn't do it for me.

How are you getting on with your 12 fret Avalon.. link to thread again?

Fair enough. We've all got our preferences.

The 12th fret Avalon is a lovely guitar but doesn't get played that much as I play more nylon strung nowaday. (despite using the wonderful Barielle, my middle fingernail was prone to splitting when playing steel strings). However, since I started using iron tablets, that has improved greatly as well. Here's the Avalon NGD link https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/161532/

Brook will make any of their small body guitars with a cutaway as an extra cost option. If you wanted something a bit smaller than a Lynn, the Weaver is a beauty.

My current steel-string favourite is a Santa Cruz 000 12-fret (no cutaway). What a guitar! (despite the obscene price)

thomasross20 · February 2023

Brilliant @PCT57 - love the slotted headstock on that, too...

Damn, that Avalon look so good *drools*

stimpsonslostson · February 2023

Faith do a mercury with a scooped lower bout to allow access.

I've had a Naked mercury for a decade & it's wonderful.

ToneControl · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

I'm surprised at the comments on youtube.
Some think that 12 fret is far better, some feel the opposite. Clearly people have different ears/taste.
I thought that the video was going to capture little difference between the two, and that it was all about actually playing it that makes the difference, but I thought there was a massive difference in the video. I assume they were careful about mic'ing up the guitars the same way

To me the 12 fret sounds very alive and responsive (which is how my 12 frets behave), and the 14 fret sound dull and flat, as if it had dead strings.

GTC · February 2023

stimpsonslostson said:

Faith do a mercury with a scooped lower bout to allow access.

I've had a Naked mercury for a decade & it's wonderful.

The Mercury is a nice guitar - but the 43mm nut width is too narrow for my liking

thomasross20 · February 2023

I agree - in the video above, the 12 fret sounded noticeably better.
However I have seen a video for an OMV-05 12 fret and it maybe sounded a bit too warm/muddy.
I think 12 fret with harder woods (like rosewood) is a good combo. It mellows things

Shadow · February 2023

GTC said:

stimpsonslostson said:

Faith do a mercury with a scooped lower bout to allow access.

I've had a Naked mercury for a decade & it's wonderful.

The Mercury is a nice guitar - but the 43mm nut width is too narrow for my liking

My experience exactly.

ToneControl · February 2023

Tannin said:

Not quite on-topic here @thomasross20 but maybe close enough to be of interest. So I'll trust to your good nature and stick this in your thread rather than start another.

I'm a bit taken with the notion of a 12-fret though I've never owned one and hardly ever played one. I don't play up the neck much but I do slip past the 12th fret for the odd song and I'm not sure how well I'd manage that on a 12 fret guitar.

I mildly dislike cutaways but it might be necessary for a 12-fret. I also dislike short scales. So one idea I'm thinking over is to order a standard 12 fret model without cutaway (parlour or single-0, something small), but with a full-length neck. In other words, leave the bridge in the centre of the lower bout (which after all is the main point of a 12-fretter) but let the neck extend as far as it needs to in order to produce a standard 650mm scale. If I have the sums right, that would result in a 13 1/8th fret guitar (assuming we start with something like a Brook Clyst which normally has 630mm scale).

I reckon that would provide the sonic benefits of a 12-fretter coupled with the crispness and better string separation of a full-length scale, give me just enough room to play the small number of things I use the upper frets for, and avoid the need for a cutaway. It seems just about perfect to me ... which probably means I haven't though it through properly.

I don't understand
All my 12 fret guitars are normal scale length ~650mm, the same as their 14 fret equivalents
I also have a baritone, around 700mm

Have you seen many short-scale 12-fret guitars somewhere?
I think Martin did some, but most of the brands I prefer seem to go for 25.5 inch for their 12 fretters

Shadow · February 2023

I don't know whether it's commonplace but Taylor's 12 fretters are 24 7/8"

stickyfiddle · February 2023

Cutaway acoustics are for monstrous people who play bad music :P

thomasross20 · February 2023

I think one of these is on the cards in future. Maybe after I hit some more personal targets (learn entire Tommy Emmanuel back catalogue lmao....)

Tannin · February 2023

ToneControl said:

All my 12 fret guitars are normal scale length ~650mm, the same as their 14 fret equivalents
I also have a baritone, around 700mm

Have you see many short-scale 12-fret guitars somewhere?
I think Martin did some, but most of the brands I prefer seem to go for 25.5 inch for their 12 fretters

Well that sounds like good news to me.

(Being a long-scale man through and through.) Most of the 12-fretters I've seen (mostly just seen advertised or listed for sale, haven't actually played more than a bare handful) have been Gibson-scale instruments and I was under the impression that the two usually went together. Maybe that's just the ones I've happened to see. It isn't a large number.

Kilgore · February 2023

stimpsonslostson said:

Faith do a mercury with a scooped lower bout to allow access.

I've had a Naked mercury for a decade & it's wonderful.

I'm not a fan of cutaways on 12 fret guitars but I think the Faith scoop is an innovative compromise.

drofluf · February 2023

ToneControl said:

<...>
All my 12 fret guitars are normal scale length ~650mm, the same as their 14 fret equivalents
I also have a baritone, around 700mm

Have you seen many short-scale 12-fret guitars somewhere?
I think Martin did some, but most of the brands I prefer seem to go for 25.5 inch for their 12 fretters

My Brook Lyn is 630mm - does that qualify as "short"? I think that's their standard scale, although they will build to whatever length you want.

thomasross20 · February 2023

Short scale just means neck extends less so fretting arm isn't so far out, right?
Are notes re scale length just down to physical convenience or is sound affected?

drofluf · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Short scale just means neck extends less so fretting arm isn't so far out, right?
Are notes re scale length just down to physical convenience or is sound affected?

My instinct says yes; all other things being equal the same note on a short scale will probably sound different. As an approximation compare the sound of an open A string compared with an open E capoed at the fifth fret.

Or looked at another way the same set of strings will be at a lower tension on a short scale

JonnyBgoode · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Who has one....

I have a Francisco Navarro flamenco blanca with a cutaway, sounds superb.

Tannin · February 2023

drofluf said:

ToneControl said:
most of the brands I prefer seem to go for 25.5 inch for their 12 fretters

My Brook Lyn is 630mm - does that qualify as "short"? I think that's their standard scale, although they will build to whatever length you want.

Yes. 630mm is pretty much standardish for short-scale guitars (or 629mm (24.75") which is the Les Paul scale length. Of course, there are also many other lengths made. There doesn't seem to be much standardisation at all once you drop below the (it really is a!) standard 650/648mm - by far the most common guitar scale length for electric or acoustic. 630mm is probably the most common short scale length. (By the way, I notice that Brook also make a good number of guitars with a 640mm scale. That is quite unusual. I suspect it would work rather well.)

Back to short sale guitars. Is the sound different? Yes, no question of it. Short scale produces a different sound and a different feel, and the different feel in turn changes the sound further.

It is generally accepted that short scale guitars have more thump and less string separation (strummed chords are less detailed and more of a single fat sound). That all makes perfectly good sense to me. You can approximate the changes by simply detuning a bit. Eb will give the correct tension but de-tuning to D will exaggerate it and make it easier to hear the difference.

The feel difference may be more or less significant depending on your technique. Left-hand feel is of course softer; a lot of players like this. Right-hand feel with a pick is probably not greatly different if you have a light touch, but if you dig in a bit short scale won't tolerate it so gracefully. (I'm guessing a bit here as I haven't used a pick for some years now.) Fingerpicking is similar but more critical (at least in my biased view as a fingerpicker). Playing lightly the difference is not great, but the harder you hit the strings the less well short scale guitars tolerate it. For me it's frustrating - I go to pop out a note I want to emphasise and instead capping the phrase by of ringing clear and true it goes "flub". Not pleasant.

Can one adapt to that? I'm sure I could if I had to. But I'd rather not.

thomasross20 · February 2023

Great points and info, thanks all

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12-fret cutaway

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