Advice re Apple MacBook/air etc for music.

jimkehoe · January 2023

Our laptop is a little past it (2013) so am going to upgrade it but not a brand new one.
As it is just my wife and I (and she rarely uses it) I was thinking it would be an opportunity to get one that doubles as a music tool (Garageband,Ableton live etc). I don’t need something that will cope with full on symphonies ad I only play guitar and dabble with the rest (keyboard, samples, loops etc)
Can anyone advise what sort of minimum spec I need and the best place to source one please?
It needs to be Apple though - I haven’t used anything else for near 25 years.
Thanks in anticipation.
Jim.

Whistler · January 2023

Since OS X came out 22 years ago every PowerBook has had the ability to run a full DAW so you do not need to worry about which model you are interested in, just that you have enough RAM and disk space.

As a rough guide, whatever the basic model's RAM is, you would do well to increase that by at least 4GB and if you intend keeping it 10 years like you have your current one, up the HD or SSD to twice the size you thought you wanted.

Sorry but I cannot advise on the best place to source one as I always buy online direct from Apple, a place I recommend but cannot compare to elsewhere.

goldtop · January 2023

A modern M1 Macbook Air is plenty, and I'm sure many slightly older Intel-based versions are, too. But now that used M1 MBAs are down to about £650 (!) there's not much reason IMHO to choose an Intel model.

If you've already got an audio interface, you need to do some homework on whether drivers are needed/available. M1 MBA only has USB-C ports, so an Apple adapter is an annoying fact of life for older interfaces.

chrisj1602 · January 2023

I use a MacBook Air, the one before the M1, I’m no pro but I use Logic for demos, works well enough for me.

jimkehoe · January 2023

Thanks all. Excellent advice as always. I was hoping a maximum budget of £7-800 will get me there. Now time to find out best place to source one.

Stuckfast · January 2023

Yes, be aware that you can't upgrade the memory or drive space after the fact, so don't skimp on these when ordering.

goldtop · January 2023

For £800, it's tricky to get an M1 Mac with the 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD pairing. Pretty rare. I'd guess >80% sold were the 8/256 model, with lots bought for office workers who were working from home under CV19 lockdown.

But I think the OP's audio needs are pretty modest and 8/256 is fine unless he's going for NI Komplete/similar.

jimkehoe · January 2023

goldtop said:

For £800, it's tricky to get an M1 Mac with the 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD pairing. Pretty rare. I'd guess >80% sold were the 8/256 model, with lots bought for office workers who were working from home under CV19 lockdown.

But I think the OP's audio needs are pretty modest and 8/256 is fine unless he's going for NI Komplete/similar.

I’m thinking an M1 air or pro with 16gb ram and 512 SSD. May have to upscale my budget a bit though. Either one better performance or value wise compared to the other?

octatonic · January 2023

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

goldtop · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

goldtop said:

For £800, it's tricky to get an M1 Mac with the 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD pairing. Pretty rare. I'd guess >80% sold were the 8/256 model, with lots bought for office workers who were working from home under CV19 lockdown.

But I think the OP's audio needs are pretty modest and 8/256 is fine unless he's going for NI Komplete/similar.

I’m thinking an M1 air or pro with 16gb ram and 512 SSD. May have to upscale my budget a bit though. Either one better performance or value wise compared to the other?

I think there was a miniscule performance difference - for audio recording, the key factor is still audio interface/driver quality. I had great luck with RME (low latency and very well supported), but switched to an MOTU M4 and USB-C for my MBA.

You're more likely to find a MBPro with 16/512.

If buying used, do check the battery. You can get an idea of battery life in two places within the System Info applet, ISTR. Annoyingly, of course, the more RAM and SSD a laptop has, the shorter its battery life and the faster the battery cycles mount up over time.

jimkehoe · January 2023

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

jimkehoe · January 2023

goldtop said:

jimkehoe said:

goldtop said:

For £800, it's tricky to get an M1 Mac with the 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD pairing. Pretty rare. I'd guess >80% sold were the 8/256 model, with lots bought for office workers who were working from home under CV19 lockdown.

But I think the OP's audio needs are pretty modest and 8/256 is fine unless he's going for NI Komplete/similar.

I’m thinking an M1 air or pro with 16gb ram and 512 SSD. May have to upscale my budget a bit though. Either one better performance or value wise compared to the other?

I think there was a miniscule performance difference - for audio recording, the key factor is still audio interface/driver quality. I had great luck with RME (low latency and very well supported), but switched to an MOTU M4 and USB-C for my MBA.

You're more likely to find a MBPro with 16/512.

If buying used, do check the battery. You can get an idea of battery life in two places within the System Info applet, ISTR. Annoyingly, of course, the more RAM and SSD a laptop has, the shorter its battery life and the faster the battery cycles mount up over time.

Thanks. I’m getting the impression a MacBook Pro M1 with 512/1Tb SSD and 16 Gb RAM is the way to go.

SquireJapan · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

...
Thanks. I’m getting the impression a MacBook Pro M1 with 512/1Tb SSD and 16 Gb RAM is the way to go.

Sadly, I'd agree - 512GB and 16GB is what it's say is a minimum if you're buying something to keep and want a bit of wiggle room. 256 and 8GB is still a lot, but things can get a little tight once you start doing more things. Manageable, but is you can avoid it, I would.

jimkehoe · January 2023

SquireJapan said:

jimkehoe said:

...
Thanks. I’m getting the impression a MacBook Pro M1 with 512/1Tb SSD and 16 Gb RAM is the way to go.

Sadly, I'd agree - 512GB and 16GB is what it's say is a minimum if you're buying something to keep and want a bit of wiggle room. 256 and 8GB is still a lot, but things can get a little tight once you start doing more things. Manageable, but is you can avoid it, I would.

Thanks.

octatonic · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

Applecare+ is only available from Apple as far as I know.
You can get a third party warranty from some places but it is unlikely to be as good.

No, I am saying that it with throttle under CPU load.
That has nothing to do with reliability.
It is performance.
Without a fan it cannot exceed certain core temps, which means it cannot exceed certain speeds.
It depends on other factors though, the type of processing and even room temperature (to a degree).

A fan in a computer allows for cooling under load- the fan spins up when it gets hot to cool it, allowing for longer periods at full CPU usage. The fanless designs don't allow this- they can run slower under load.

They are all as reliable as each other- to a point.
There is an argument to be made that high usage at high temperature shortens component life but not massively.

I would still argue for buying new, with an extendible warranty.

jimkehoe · January 2023

octatonic said:

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

Applecare+ is only available from Apple as far as I know.
You can get a third party warranty from some places but it is unlikely to be as good.

No, I am saying that it with throttle under CPU load.
That has nothing to do with reliability.
It is performance.
Without a fan it cannot exceed certain core temps, which means it cannot exceed certain speeds.
It depends on other factors though, the type of processing and even room temperature (to a degree).

A fan in a computer allows for cooling under load- the fan spins up when it gets hot to cool it, allowing for longer periods at full CPU usage. The fanless designs don't allow this- they can run slower under load.

They are all as reliable as each other- to a point.
There is an argument to be made that high usage at high temperature shortens component life but not massively.

I would still argue for buying new, with an extendible warranty.

Thanks that’s very informative. I’d love to buy new but I can’t really justify that sort of outlay. I do love apple but blimey they don’t come cheap:)

monquixote · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

Applecare+ is only available from Apple as far as I know.
You can get a third party warranty from some places but it is unlikely to be as good.

No, I am saying that it with throttle under CPU load.
That has nothing to do with reliability.
It is performance.
Without a fan it cannot exceed certain core temps, which means it cannot exceed certain speeds.
It depends on other factors though, the type of processing and even room temperature (to a degree).

A fan in a computer allows for cooling under load- the fan spins up when it gets hot to cool it, allowing for longer periods at full CPU usage. The fanless designs don't allow this- they can run slower under load.

They are all as reliable as each other- to a point.
There is an argument to be made that high usage at high temperature shortens component life but not massively.

I would still argue for buying new, with an extendible warranty.

Thanks that’s very informative. I’d love to buy new but I can’t really justify that sort of outlay. I do love apple but blimey they don’t come cheap:)

The ability to dissipate heat is very important for performance.

I would anticipate the performance of a Mac Mini for example will be considerably higher than that of a Macbook Air.

The last generation of intel macs had terrible real world performance I have an i9 Macbook and it constantly stutters and crawls because it overheats at the slightest hint of sustained load. It's theoretically high powered machine, but you see none of it.

Fanless machines if kept to sensible operating temperatures should be more reliable as they don't have mechanical components and don't get vents clogged up with fluff.

octatonic · January 2023

monquixote said:

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

Applecare+ is only available from Apple as far as I know.
You can get a third party warranty from some places but it is unlikely to be as good.

No, I am saying that it with throttle under CPU load.
That has nothing to do with reliability.
It is performance.
Without a fan it cannot exceed certain core temps, which means it cannot exceed certain speeds.
It depends on other factors though, the type of processing and even room temperature (to a degree).

A fan in a computer allows for cooling under load- the fan spins up when it gets hot to cool it, allowing for longer periods at full CPU usage. The fanless designs don't allow this- they can run slower under load.

They are all as reliable as each other- to a point.
There is an argument to be made that high usage at high temperature shortens component life but not massively.

I would still argue for buying new, with an extendible warranty.

Thanks that’s very informative. I’d love to buy new but I can’t really justify that sort of outlay. I do love apple but blimey they don’t come cheap:)

The ability to dissipate heat is very important for performance.

I would anticipate the performance of a Mac Mini for example will be considerably higher than that of a Macbook Air.

The last generation of intel macs had terrible real world performance I have an i9 Macbook and it constantly stutters and crawls because it overheats at the slightest hint of sustained load. It's theoretically high powered machine, but you see none of it.

Fanless machines if kept to sensible operating temperatures should be more reliable as they don't have mechanical components and don't get vents clogged up with fluff.

I returned that machine within 24 hours of getting it.
I couldn't have it on my lap for more than 2 mins, even with a case.

Apple totally did the right thing moving to SoC.
It is astonishing how much power the new machines have.

I don't understand how they will solve the Mac pro issue- what sort of PCIE bus it will have etc and for me I've finally made my peace with using expansion chassis, albeit with the computer in a machine room.

For a laptop, I think the sweet spot for performance and portability is the 14" MBP.
It is what I have (2021 version).
I have no immediate need to move to the 2023 but if I did then that is what I would buy.
The Air is great, but having the *possibility* of throttling is not for me.
I've still never heard the fan in the 14" though, even running some very complex Max patches, large audio sessions and doing moderately complex video work.

JezWynd · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

I assume that an Apple warranty is only available from Apple or is it available from trusted resellers/refurbishers ?
Are you saying the air isn’t as reliable as a result of a lack of fan?

You can inherit Applecare from the previous owner if it is still live when you purchase a used machine.

My old machine was a 2013 MBP i7/16/128 and it's still working though I upgraded to an M1 a while ago. The M1 runs much cooler than the old Intel machines despite having no fan. As others have already mentioned, getting as much RAM as poss and a decent size hard drive will ensure that the machine has a long working life.

octatonic · January 2023

You don’t always inherit AppleCare anymore.

Only if they buy a policy that does not auto renew. Apple have recently changed their approach.

Now it is possible to get a yearly renewing AppleCare plus that cannot be transferred to a new owner.

But you buy a three-year AppleCare plus policy can be transferred.

roberty · January 2023

octatonic said:

The Air is fanless which means it will throttle under CPU load.

Get as much RAM and storage as you can afford.
16GB, 1TB would be my suggestion, to get the maximum life out of the machine.

I struggle to recommend used Mac laptops because of a lack of warranty.
If the SSD (or anything else soldered on) dies then you have a doorstop.
My previous MBP (15" 2017) was essentially swapped out (except for the bottom case) under the AppleCare+ warranty.
It is worth its weight, imo.

My 13" 2017 for work suffered a similar fate. The processor used to idle at 70° it was ridiculous. Probably just cooked itself from the inside

Apple silicon runs extremely cool, I wouldn't worry about thermal throttling

jimkehoe · January 2023

Good advice from all. Unfortunately I think a new one is not justifiable. Trying to find one somewhere used/refurbed with a decent/reliable warranty at a more realistic price.

If anyone comes across a MacBook Pro M1 with 16Gb RAM and 512 or 1Tb SDD that fits the bill please let me know.

goldtop · January 2023

Yes, warranty is going to be the biggest issue. Most I saw that were close to your price range were on FB Marketplace - private sales with the need to be careful when buying. There are a lot of scammers, because the high spec ones are still very desirable devices.

jimkehoe · January 2023

goldtop said:

Yes, warranty is going to be the biggest issue. Most I saw that were close to your price range were on FB Marketplace - private sales with the need to be careful when buying. There are a lot of scammers, because the high spec ones are still very desirable devices.

That’s what worries me. I may have to put the plan on hold.

jimkehoe · January 2023

One further question - I have found a 2020 13” MacBook Pro with a 2 GHz quad core i5 processor, 500 Gb SSD, 16 Gb RAM. Battery shown as normal condition, 414 cycle ?
Would this be suitable? If so any idea of a fair price re a private sale?

goldtop · January 2023

First question: really, honestly and truthfully - describe your typical DAW project. And then your dream DAW project. Because I suspect that the M1 with 8/256 would more than cover it. And I am pretty sure that it'd work for 90% of guitar-based DAW users.

If you're orchestrating a film score, using several sample libraries and with huge amounts of FX on each track, then you're in the 10% along with Octatonic and a few other tFBers. And that Intel MBP isn't going to cut it either.

My gut tells me that Apple will start to differentiate products (MacOS, Garageband, Logic) for Intel, and prioritise support for Apple Silicon. And it will nudge other software developers to do the same.

(I like my Macs, but hate Apple's approach to business.)

jimkehoe · January 2023

goldtop said:

First question: really, honestly and truthfully - describe your typical DAW project. And then your dream DAW project. Because I suspect that the M1 with 8/256 would more than cover it. And I am pretty sure that it'd work for 90% of guitar-based DAW users.

If you're orchestrating a film score, using several sample libraries and with huge amounts of FX on each track, then you're in the 10% along with Octatonic and a few other tFBers. And that Intel MBP isn't going to cut it either.

My gut tells me that Apple will start to differentiate products (MacOS, Garageband, Logic) for Intel, and prioritise support for Apple Silicon. And it will nudge other software developers to do the same.

(I like my Macs, but hate Apple's approach to business.)

Typical DAW project - 5/6 tracks max. Generally audio (guitar) and loops/samples. Occasional midi/software synth etc.

monquixote · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

One further question - I have found a 2020 13” MacBook Pro with a 2 GHz quad core i5 processor, 500 Gb SSD, 16 Gb RAM. Battery shown as normal condition, 414 cycle ?
Would this be suitable? If so any idea of a fair price re a private sale?

There is no way I'd buy a recent Intel Mac.

They are really poor quality and overheat.

I'd either buy something old and dirt cheap or something with an M1

jimkehoe · January 2023

monquixote said:

jimkehoe said:

One further question - I have found a 2020 13” MacBook Pro with a 2 GHz quad core i5 processor, 500 Gb SSD, 16 Gb RAM. Battery shown as normal condition, 414 cycle ?
Would this be suitable? If so any idea of a fair price re a private sale?

There is no way I'd buy a recent Intel Mac.

They are really poor quality and overheat.

I'd either buy something old and dirt cheap or something with an M1

Forewarned - Many thanks. I’ll shelve that idea.

monquixote · January 2023

jimkehoe said:

monquixote said:

jimkehoe said:

One further question - I have found a 2020 13” MacBook Pro with a 2 GHz quad core i5 processor, 500 Gb SSD, 16 Gb RAM. Battery shown as normal condition, 414 cycle ?
Would this be suitable? If so any idea of a fair price re a private sale?

There is no way I'd buy a recent Intel Mac.

They are really poor quality and overheat.

I'd either buy something old and dirt cheap or something with an M1

Forewarned - Many thanks. I’ll shelve that idea.

I'm sitting with a 2020 i9 16" MBP on my desk that cost £3K (luckily work bought it)

It's complete dogshit. It's been sitting on my desk browsing the web and so hot you can barely touch it. Despite having been solidly on charge with an official Apple charger since Friday the batteries are apparently half empty.

jimkehoe · January 2023

monquixote said:

jimkehoe said:

monquixote said:

jimkehoe said:

One further question - I have found a 2020 13” MacBook Pro with a 2 GHz quad core i5 processor, 500 Gb SSD, 16 Gb RAM. Battery shown as normal condition, 414 cycle ?
Would this be suitable? If so any idea of a fair price re a private sale?

There is no way I'd buy a recent Intel Mac.

They are really poor quality and overheat.

I'd either buy something old and dirt cheap or something with an M1

Forewarned - Many thanks. I’ll shelve that idea.

I'm sitting with a 2020 i9 16" MBP on my desk that cost £3K (luckily work bought it)

It's complete dogshit. It's been sitting on my desk browsing the web and so hot you can barely touch it. Despite having been solidly on charge with an official Apple charger since Friday the batteries are apparently half empty.

Oops - doesn’t sound too good.

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Advice re Apple MacBook/air etc for music.

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