Is our tone in our fingers?

stufisher · January 2023

I'm sat with a cuppa and perusing t'internet ... just found this little vid and I immediately thought this is one to put yo tFB.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFwojYcM/

What's the collective view on this subject?

Personally, I do believe there is something to debate but I'm not sure if it's more style-related rather than just tone.

Surely tone can be replicated through technical wizardry by playing style can be unique and recognisable as such.

RickLucas · January 2023

Yes.

TheMarlin · January 2023

RickLucas said:

Yes.

Agreed. i remember when David Gilmour was on Desert Island Disks, he said he could walking into any guitar store, pick up any decent guitar, plug into any decent amp, and would sound exactly like himself.

TheBigDipper · January 2023

I think so.

thecolourbox · January 2023

Some of it is, some of it isn't. I can't play wah with my fingers

sweepy · January 2023

One of the local pubs to me, The Red Lion in cropredy also had a little music shop in the back room, lots of nice Jap Tokai Gibson, Fender etc. a group of us used to pop in every Tuesday for a pint and a gear natter and one thing we always noticed was how different we all sounded through the same rig, so I have to say a sizeable portion of your sound must be in your hands

LastMantra · January 2023

Whatever dirt pedals I use I end up with basically the same sound. One of my pedals broke a while back and I've not got round to fixing it, at first I thought that's my main distortion and a large part of my sound, but after a while of using a different pedal I figured I sound pretty much the same. I suppose I tune them in to get the sound I like.
Glad I never got into the expensive boutique jobs.

GoFish · January 2023

TBH I still don't really know what "tone" is (as used by guitaristas)

But, to use an Americanism, it's the rider not the bike. That I can agree on.

darthed1981 · January 2023

Not fucking mine...

Danny1969 · January 2023

thecolourbox said:

Some of it is, some of it isn't. I can't play wah with my fingers

True, but things like where you hit the string, how hard and whether you use a pick or finger can make a big difference.

Want a free reverb on an acoustic then play the notes but don't kill the other strings, let them ring out. Want a great 60's surf sound then hold the pick really loosely on an electric and pick down near the bridge. Chicken picking quack comes from muting the string with your thumb then plucking the string. I've picked up loads of tricks watching people like Greg Koch and Tom Bukovac

I think the trouble with tone is nobody really knows what we mean by it. Sometimes we think someone has a great tone but they haven't really, they just have such a great musical expressive way of playing we think it's a good tone.

stufisher · January 2023

This might add something to the discussion ... or at least clarify some of the nuances we are considering:

https://www.musicgateway.com/blog/music-industry/music-business/what-is-tone-in-music-everything-you-need-to-know

slacker · January 2023

Yes and no. It's not one or the other. A great player can play a bad guitar and the other way around. Learning songs and lessons will make you a better player. A good guitar amp and pedals will make you sound better. Learning how to be your own sound engineer i.e. learning how to eq and how to use gain will make you sound better.

All of the above will combine to sound like you. Change one element eq stop relying on the minor pentatonic or not mid scooping will change your 'tone'.

Years ago I played very briefly with a guy that pulled the strings sharp. He never sounded good on any instrument.

Jez6345789 · January 2023

I get the expression and agree with it but the reality is it’s in your head your hands are just the physical manifestations of what your brain is telling them to do.

it’s all those little aspects of a person how they hear how they interpret the attack the subtle phrasing etc.

think we have all seen the player with phenomenal technical chops and the guys who you don’t even think about what they are playing* but from the moment they play you quickly know they are the real deal.

Barney · January 2023

No ....I think it's in a tone or volume control ....good phrasing and note choice is in the fingers and tone can change a bit with different plecs and attack ...but mainly it's good phrasing ..note choice and how you hit the note ...dynamics ect ....

Sporky · January 2023

The problem is that "tone" is used to mean lots of different things. Some uses are definitely influenced, or even determined, by technique. Then you get "tone suck" in the pedal world, which is a tiny but of level and treble loss.

I had a chum years ago who described a guitar as "toneless" because playing it harder or softer just made it louder or quieter, with no significant change in timbre.

stickyfiddle · January 2023

Your fingers and how you use them are a big part of how any guitar ends up sounding. I always get comments from other people that my setup is always really trebly but in my hands it sounds pretty regular. Admittedly I don't like a lot of bass for band-mix reasons, but I'm more extreme than most folks because I guess my hands sound... fat?

Honestly I always assume anyone stating a blanket position that the player makes no difference just kinda sucks

prowla · January 2023

Well - yes and no...

Of course fingers (ie. technique, muscle memory, etc.) do have a major contribution to "tone"; however...

Curiously the tone controls on the instrument have an effect on the tone: play the bridge pickup with the tone on 10, switch to the neck pickup with the tone on 0 - the sounds coming out of the speaker will be quite different.
Where you play has a significant influence on the tone - play a chord near the bridge and then near the neck.
Play through a cranked-up valve amp and then a tranny one - do they sound the same?
Play a Strat, a Les Paul, a 335, a classical guitar, a 12-string acoustic; they'll sound tonally different.

So, it's not an either/or question.

Perhaps you could say that two people playing the same instrument through the same gear, on the same settings would sound different, but extrapolating that to say therefore fingers totally define the "tone" is a fundamentally flawed assertion.

mrkb · January 2023

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers.

it’s from three things-
1 the equipment - a cranked metal amp won’t allow a clean sound
2 how the player sets up the equipment - Ive noticed I set different amps up to sound similar ie to my sound
3 how the player plays the notes - how hard the string is hit, etc

flying_pie · January 2023

Tone is 100% in the fingers.

Never mind phrasing, vibrato and picking dynamics and all that stuff, fingers also turn the dials on all the pedals and amps, operates the internet searches for gear, do the soldering of components and handles all the financial transactions

Caffeine_Vampire · January 2023

Mine is in my feet.

I have great toe'n.

I'm leaving now.

Lestratcaster · January 2023

Yes 100%.

I'm a tutor and always get that comment from learners when I pick up their guitar "that it sounds so good when you play it".

How many versions of the Comfortably Numb solo have you seen that sound good but not quite the same as when Gilmour plays it? That's because we can't clone his hands and skin genetics unfortunately as only he can make it sound the way it does. Some people can get close, very close though.

Roland · January 2023

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers …

My fingers do touch the vibrating section of the strings, with left and right hand damping. Besides damping to stop a note I frequently use partial damping to control the amount of treble frequencies. If I’m too loud, and starting to drown out the singer, I’ll use partial damping, rather than change dynamics by picking more gently, until I have time to nudge the volume knob. Like @stickyfiddle have my amp setting treble high because I can manage the sound with the guitar’s tone knob and my fingers.

When using a plectrum I often use the side of my thumb to modify the way the string vibrates, although I normally don’t use enough gain for stealing pinched harmonics.

Even when my fingers aren’t contacting the string directly they’re affecting the note. Bending and vibrato are obvious. There’s also the way I hold the plectrum. Sometimes pulling it into my hand so that only the tip strikes the string, sometimes pushing it outwards for looser strumming. Then there’s slanting for different attack. Something which a lot of guitarists do, but often don’t notice, is how they use micro bends to sweeten notes in a chord. Squeezing a minor third slightly sharp is the prime example.

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Teetonetal · January 2023

Lestratcaster said:

Yes 100%.

I'm a tutor and always get that comment from learners when I pick up their guitar "that it sounds so good when you play it".

It ought to. You are a professional. If it didn't, then you are in the wrong job.

For me, there is a technical level of competence and experience that any professional musician should reach, that should enable them to sound good on any old piece of junk that might get flung their way.

I always feel in these debates that "tone" basically means, recognisable technique and style, that can shine through despite gear choice. Sometimes, that technique element is also on who to use the gear to get the sound you require (obvious example the edge)

merlin · January 2023

"Tone" is also affected by timing. If you play behind the beat then you sound "flat" tonally and if you play ahead then you sound "sharp".

Depending on your relationship to the pulse, your brain (and other's brains) alter the "tone".

It's like sharp in pitch sounds brighter and flat sounds darker. So "tone" is about great subtleties of timing and pitch as well as about gear. Maybe not about fingers but about timing and pitching.

Lestratcaster · January 2023

Teetonetal said:

Lestratcaster said:

Yes 100%.

I'm a tutor and always get that comment from learners when I pick up their guitar "that it sounds so good when you play it".

It ought to. You are a professional. If it didn't, then you are in the wrong job.

For me, there is a technical level of competence and experience that any professional musician should reach, that should enable them to sound good on any old piece of junk that might get flung their way.

I always feel in these debates that "tone" basically means, recognisable technique and style, that can shine through despite gear choice. Sometimes, that technique element is also on who to use the gear to get the sound you require (obvious example the edge)

I try lol.

Maybe I used the wrong phrase. They say it sounds "different" to when they play it may be a better saying. Even when just ringing out an open E chord. Heavy handed strumming is another one that I notice.

sev112 · January 2023

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers.

it’s from three things-
1 the equipment - a cranked metal amp won’t allow a clean sound
2 how the player sets up the equipment - Ive noticed I set different amps up to sound similar ie to my sound
3 how the player plays the notes - how hard the string is hit, etc

Do an experiment
hold the D or G string down with absolute tip of your finger, play a note
now hold the string down as a barre across all 6 strings, play the same note

Vastly different tone even though there is fret in both cases

LastMantra · January 2023

Roland said:

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers …

My fingers do touch the vibrating section of the strings, with left and right hand damping. Besides damping to stop a note I frequently use partial damping to control the amount of treble frequencies. If I’m too loud, and starting to drown out the singer, I’ll use partial damping, rather than change dynamics by picking more gently, until I have time to nudge the volume knob. Like @stickyfiddle have my amp setting treble high because I can manage the sound with the guitar’s tone knob and my fingers.

When using a plectrum I often use the side of my thumb to modify the way the string vibrates, although I normally don’t use enough gain for stealing pinched harmonics.

Even when my fingers aren’t contacting the string directly they’re affecting the note. Bending and vibrato are obvious. There’s also the way I hold the plectrum. Sometimes pulling it into my hand so that only the tip strikes the string, sometimes pushing it outwards for looser strumming. Then there’s slanting for different attack. Something which a lot of guitarists do, but often don’t notice, is how they use micro bends to sweeten notes in a chord. Squeezing a minor third slightly sharp is the prime example.

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Could you not also say that even though the two would play differently you'd technically be using the same guitar tone? As in amp/guitar settings.

Like a "tone" control on a radio effects the tone of the radio no matter what is playing.

LastMantra · January 2023

I'd say tone is a result of the fingers and the equipment. The over all sound that is produced by said musician on said equipment.

A good musician might be able to make any old equipment sound good but that's not to say they wouldn't sound slightly different on different equipment. Other wise what's the point in having different equipment?

Barney · January 2023

Iff tone is in the fingers why do we all go mad for new guitars ...FX pedals ...amps .. ??

sev112 · January 2023

Tone is humidity

stickyfiddle · January 2023

Barney said:

Iff tone is in the fingers why do we all go mad for new guitars ...FX pedals ...amps .. ??

Because those things are fun? And certainly much easier to go get gear than to focus on the “finger stuff”

I mean.. you definitely need the right gear to get in the ballpark - you’re unlikely to play Sultans of Swing on a Les Paul and EMGs into a screaming Dual Rec and have it sound authentic.

But once you have a setup that will roughly get you there, it’s far more important to focus on style, timing, phrasing and aggression (sounds like robot wars!).

It’s this stuff why most folks who play Comfortably Numb sound somewhere between terrible and middling. It’s not that the gear is desperately critical and if they only had those final few molecules correct inside their diodes they’d be able to get it perfect.

I really like nice gear and have been lucky enough to have some really good kit. But it’s how I use it that makes me sound good

God knows the other guitarist in band has a Silver Sky and Quad Cortex and still sounds like ass…

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Is our tone in our fingers?

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