New PC vs Upgrade 11-year-old Machine?

Basher · January 2023

Sorry for the long, and slightly vague, post.

I have an old PC that I use for recording plus a bit of occasional Photoshop/Illustrator work.

The PC is 11 years old and was from Scan's budget "barebones" audio range.

Spec is i7 2600 CPU, 8GB memory, onboard motherboard graphics only, 512GB "system" HDD, 2TB "storage" HDD. The "storage" HDD is a replacement as the original 1TB unit died last year, losing many years of recordings and ideas.

Since losing everything when the storage drive crashed (guess which idiot didn't have a backup?) I've just not been able to get back into recording. The PC takes ages to boot up - about 5 minutes - and then is slow for another 10 minutes while the system drive is registering 100% use. I've tried countless fixes for both problems - removing all startup programs, malware scans, registry cleans etc. - without success. The issues seemed to start when I did the "in-situ" upgrade from Windows 7 to 10. The current machine still works ok when recording but the other issues are frustrating, along with countless other intermittent problems (e.g. occasional terrible keyboard lag when typing).

I think I have very modest audio requirements - Reaper and Komplete 13 plus a few bits and pieces such as Amplitube (old version). My audio interface is a Komplete Audio 6 (original model).

I was assuming that I definitely need a new PC but when I posted this question on the SOS forum I was surprised that there were two viewpoints:

there's nothing that wrong with the PC so upgrading your system HDD for a SSD would probably fix it (plus a memory upgrade wouldn't go amiss)
it's an old PC with issues, get a new/refurbished one. (Someone suggested that I don't even need a recording PC as such as my requirements would be met by a modest, standard-issue sort of machine.)

I'm not ignoring this advice but I don't relish the thought of the SSD upgrade and, even if it's possible, the idea of installing a mirror copy of my crap-filled hard disk seems to be asking for trouble.

That said, a couple of hundred quid for a fix is a lot more appealing that something like £1k for the Scan entry-level audio machine.

Anybody got any thoughts, opinions or other comments?

octatonic · January 2023

Whatever you do, install a fresh OS and drag/copy the data, installing apps from scratch.
Don't copy the drive over as an image- you just copy all the crap over and it makes the whole exercise pointless.
It isn't difficult, I've done three systems today.

The problem with piecemeal upgrades is you are only as fast as the slowest bit.
So if you upgrade the CPU, RAM and HD but are using an old motherboard then there is your bottleneck.

Or upgrade CPU, RAM, HD and Motherboard but your old power supply isn't up to the job.

I would buy parts and put a system together- even if you do it over a few months.
In the meantime I would back up the existing system, format the drive, reinstall everything from scratch.
That is likely to have a bigger impact that you might expect.

Basher · January 2023

octatonic said:

I would buy parts and put a system together- even if you do it over a few months.
In the meantime I would back up the existing system, format the drive, reinstall everything from scratch.
That is likely to have a bigger impact that you might expect.

Thanks for the advice @octatonic ;

Trouble is that I wouldn't trust myself to buy compatible components. As soon as I hear things like "motherboard socket' or "thermal paste" I panic and run away.

I'm tempted to try the os reinstall but am worried that as I don't have an original Win10 (or even 7) disk it might not be possible. I have a usb stick with the windows 10 install/repair download on it that I got from my wife's pc after totally knackering the boot partition on mine. I'm not sure if that'll let me do the fresh install as I don't have a physical serial number.

I'm also slightly reluctant as my Photoshop and Illustrator are (very) old versions without install disks. My problem and I need to face this if buying a new pc.

Will give it some thought. Thanks for the help.

Winny_Pooh · January 2023

Sorry but the only way to get it useable is an ssd and new OS and re-install software. Either on the current PC or a new mid price £600 Dell

Bod · January 2023

I'd say that while you'd see improvements with component/ssd upgrades, a full upgrade is really the only way forward with a PC of that age.

What do you use in Komplete 13? Even my 32gb 9th gen i5-9600k grumbles with some of the newer instruments (Straylight, Pharlight etc).

I have a friend that has bought refurbished PCs from eBay with much success. You'd easily find something that meets your requirements, but obviously you'd need to spend some time transferring data and reinstalling apps, but you're going to have to take that plunge at some point.

EDIT : Something like this maybe? We have used these at work. It'd be a big improvement on your current machine and spares are readily available should hardware issues occur down the line.

Jono111 · January 2023

I would be tempted to get a used one off ebay from a 'refurbisher' . You can get a i7 6700 with 16GB mem, ssd and graphics card, Win 10 installed all for around £200. Still old but much better than you have and probably cheaper than buying separate bits

goldtop · January 2023

8GB i7 with SSD ought to be quick enough.

The problem isn't the age or spec of your PC, it's the accumulated sh*t from years of running it and installing this/that update/etc. A 5 minute boot time is a sign of that. My not-quite-so-old but way slower i3-3210 laptop now boots in 20 seconds after fresh Windows and an SSD.

Bod · January 2023

I agree that a clearout and rebuild with SSD will improve things massively, but if you're going to that effort why not upgrade too if funds are available? It's just delaying the inevitable.

If it was just being used for light browsing etc then I'd say no problem, but a second generation i7 will struggle with much of the Komplete 13 suite.

thecolourbox · January 2023

Interesting thread that I'll be following as my old laptop is also at risk of either dying or getting thrown out the window in frustration. My boot time isn't actually too bad at all, but it was a 4 year old refurb when I bought it in 2017, and it has many elements of frustration. I've done the OS reinstall several times (and each time I have to re-purchase MS Office) and it has an SSD already but the issues still persist. I'd like a desktop going forward for music and art stuff then just keep this laptop as a netbook I think

There are a lot of refurb options out there, and it does seem very hard to decipher which are worth a go and which are not, especially with the generations of intel processors - this current one has a 3rd gen i5 at 2.6ghz, which at the time I thought was fine but I didn't know enough about the generations of processors so made a costly mistake buying this one.

I know buying new at normal price is probably a safer bet but knowing my inability to buy things well, I'd end up with a lemon which is an even more expensive lemon than necessary!

Good luck sorting yours out OP, hopefully you get something good

mudslide73 · January 2023

I'd build one or get someone to help you as you'll get more spec per £. There are some great cpu/motherboard/memory bundles on Ebay - then it's just picking a case, video card and some storage. I used CCL Computers for the majority of the parts last time I did it.

Basher · January 2023

Thanks for all the comments folks. Will comment in two parts as this first one is specific to @Bod - who asked about Komplete and I feel like I have a rant/moan coming on.

@Bod I only have the bog-standard Komplete13 which doesn't include Pharlight or Straylight. My use of Komplete is somewhat minimal and I acquired it via the various updates from the starter bundle that came with the KA6 interface.

Embarrassingly enough, I only upgraded as my Komplete9 library was on the HDD that crashed. I thought I might as well upgrade if I was having to reinstall the whole bloody thing. Wish I hadn't bothered as so much of the new stuff (in the basic version) is endless "urban" expansion packs and sounds. Everything sounds so specific and "finished" that, even if that music was my genre, I'd want to get the sounds myself rather than drop in loads of pre-produced, instant sounds.

FWIW, I love Massive (original version) as it's the first synth I've ever enjoyed programming my own sounds with. Other than that it's mainly the Abbey Road 60s drums, a few pianos, e-pianos and various odds-n-sods from the library.

My Reaper version is so old that it doesn't do VST3s so in order to use things like Super8 or MassiveX I've had to fudge it using Native plugin as a vst, which results in increased latency.

Super8 sounds far more up my street - good, clean Juno/Jupiter-esque fun.
MassiveX has left me cold maybe because I'm such a fan of the original synth.

I suppose I just need to spend more time messing with the new stuff to find what I like. I'm just indifferent to to the millions of patches where you press middle C and hear eighteen dynamically morphing synth layers with percussive parts fading in and out, routed through 27 delays and reverbs!

Basher · January 2023

To everyone else, I think your comments are telling me what I know already and that's that I probably need a new PC.

My main issue is my own ignorance and, while I find the idea of building my own machine impossibly cool, I doubt I'd get out of the starting blocks.

Trying to find all the compatible components at a reasonable price seems like trying to nail jelly to the wall. Everything is becoming obsolete by the week while prices shoot up and down almost daily. I'm probably exaggerating but that's how it seems to me.

I did once commission a local muso to put a PC together for me but that never worked and I regretted that move for years afterwards. It had about a thousand virtual drives and was incapable of running anything music-related.

The "refurbished" idea seems too good to be true! Where do all these apparent bargain machines come from in order to be refurbished? Also the key word here seems to be the "reputable" prefix and I've no idea who is, or isn't worth the risk of buying from.

TBH, the whole business is leaving me frustrated and a bit flat. I suppose the safe option is Scan but you pay for the peace of mind and, for the sort of spec I'd like, I'm looking at £2k or so.

What do people do for backups these days? My old removable 512Gb drive has developed an intermittent fault and the few backups I had were all lost because it wouldn't work without a reformat. Do people just get a several Tb removable drive and overwrite their previous versions?

Bod · January 2023

@Basher - I hear you and I'm much the same with regards to Komplete. A great deal of it is geared towards beat "producers" via expansions and I too have little interest in that. The newer instruments such as Hybrid Keys, Straylight, Ethereal Earth, Massive X are great though.

Regarding refurb machines, many of them are corporate-leased devices that have been discarded after they've been replaced under agreement, often after 3 years.

I use a USB3 caddy with a 4TB drive connected and run weekly image-based backups (enough for me) - one full backup at the start of the month followed by incrementals every Friday using Macrium Reflect. Documents and photos are also synced with Google Drive/Photos.

Heartfeltdawn · January 2023

Basher said:

To everyone else, I think your comments are telling me what I know already and that's that I probably need a new PC.

My main issue is my own ignorance and, while I find the idea of building my own machine impossibly cool, I doubt I'd get out of the starting blocks.

Trying to find all the compatible components at a reasonable price seems like trying to nail jelly to the wall. Everything is becoming obsolete by the week while prices shoot up and down almost daily. I'm probably exaggerating but that's how it seems to me.

I've built multiple PCs of varying specs and it's actually a lot easier than you think. Where most people get confused is that they really don't nail down what they want from the start.

Take something like a properly quiet system. 10 years ago it was an expensive business. Now you have a company like BeQuiet who sell PSUs and CPU coolers that are very quiet for a lot less money. Storage is cheap. No virtual drives needed! I'm installing two 2TB drives tomorrow. The kid in me who got wowwed at 40Mb drives still giggles when he thinks of a 2TB SSD costing £120. Get a decent case and you'll see how easy it is to wire up a PC now. If you're not into gaming, then something like a Ryzen 5 5600G is wonderful.

You really don't have to go to Scan for a PC to get something powerful, quiet, and reliable. More than happy to spec something up for you if you want

Jez6345789 · January 2023

Hi
I think you have pretty much all you need the only thing I would add is people are right you could fix the current machine SSD more memory and a fresh windows install.

But looking at how cheap refurbs now are with 16+ meg memory and decent size SSD and Hard drive you are hard pushed to deny the value. Especially as your system seems pretty fragmented trying to find the windows install disk etc and all the other stuff sounds like its going to be a pain so a refurb machine at 250 or whatever spec you choose seems undeniable value we have a refurb Dell in the warehouse for scanning bar codes and packing order station thing was 200 quid gets used heavily every day by multiple people and has not missed a beat in 5 years come March.

thecolourbox · January 2023

On the other hand, in those five years my refurb Lenovo ThinkPad laptop has missed many beats and continues to be frustrating at all the various predictable weak points - so refurbs can be great or they can be pants, so make sure as much as you can that what you are buying and who from are both good, and hopefully get some knowledgeable friends or folks from here's viewpoints to run it past.

darthed1981 · January 2023

I've got an old pc that I still sometimes use that has just turned 11. It had various upgrades and still remains a decent general browsing etc PC - can even play old games fairly well as one of the upgrades was the graphics card.

FWIW - the SSD upgrade is simply a few screws and swapping two cables. Then install windows 10 from a USB stick onto your new "system" SSD and activate with what I presume is a Windows 7 key.

Then you will probably be surprised just how fast and capable it actually is!

PhilKing · January 2023

I was debating this same thing with my music PC, and then I downloaded some plugins that were on sale and could hear the audio in Cubase slow as they processed, so bit the bullet and am building a new one. I have lots of cases, and my current machine is in a rack case, which I will keep for the new one. I was debating AMD vs Intel but saw the reviews and performance and decided to go for Intel. Another factor was that the motherboard has built in Thunderbolt connectors, so that allows me more upgrade choices in future.

I currently am running an Asus motherboard with an intel I5-3550 processor at 3.3ghz with 24gb of DDR3 Ram and an Nvidia 1gb video card. The operating system is Windows 10. The system drive is a 2Tb hard drive with 2 500gb SSD's for the data. I also have an external 4tb backup drive.

I have 2 UAD PCI cards (one quad and one dual processor) and the PCI MOTU for my audio, running a 2048, a 24i-0, a 1224 and a 24i for the audio.

I'm running Cubase 12 with 2 monitors.

What I am upgrading to is:

MSI MEG Z590 ACE Gold Motherboard
Intel i7-11700k 8-core 3.6ghz with quiet cooling fan
48gb ddr4 Ram
1 2tb and 1 1tb M2 PCIe4 drive cards
MSI Aero GeForce GTX 1630 4gb video card

I also got a new 750w power supply. With the sales here, the total cost of the parts was around $1,300. I will build this in another rack case that I have and will use PC Mover to copy over the system and key software that I want on the new machine.

The parts should be here in a couple of weeks, so I'm hoping to get it up and running before the end of the month.

octatonic · January 2023

For part compatibility use : https://pcpartpicker.com/list/

PhilKing · January 2023

Got everything running this weekend and have it back in the rack. The biggest problem was the MOTU PCIe-424 card. It wasn't recognized no matter how much I tried reloading the drivers (I was starting to think it was an issue with Windows 11). However moving the cards around fixed the problem (even though I have no idea why).

I also had an issue with the CC121 dropping in and out on the USB buss and I still have to check to see what that is (I'm assuming the drivers need reloading).

I added a 1tb ssd for the operating system, as I read that it was a better option for the slight drop in performance. The first thing that I noticed and also thought was a problem, is that there is no noise from it. Even the fans are silent.

It is really a lot better in terms of performance. Where I was getting some dropouts from Cubase before, now I'm down to around 35% cpu usage.

I haven't started working in earnest with it yet but I think it was well worth the new build.

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New PC vs Upgrade 11-year-old Machine?

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