Had a strange revelation about minor triads and a major seventh triad

allen · December 2022

So, I was messing about with some minor triads on the top 3 strings.

Here's Am

So far, so easy.

But then if you move the triad to strings 2/3/4 you get (I think you'd call that first inversion)

Image: https://i.ibb.co/Jy558fx/Am-2.png

And then if you add an F on top it suddenly turns into an Fmaj7

Well, it was a revelation for me I suppose. Is there a way to explore similar similarities?

digitalkettle · December 2022

Points of order...

Your first voicing is a second inversion because the fifth is in the bass
Your second voicing has a third in the bass so it's the first inversion
Your third voicing adds an 'F' on the bottom or in the bass

CarpeDiem · December 2022

I’m just trying to understand more about chord theory, so I’m sure that the more knowledgeable people will be able to comment more.

I think that major 7 chords contain a minor triad a third above the root, and minor 7 chords contain a major triad a third above the root.

When I refer to major 7 chords, these are constructed from the major scale whilst minor 7 chords are constructed from the minor scale.

carlos · December 2022

CarpeDiem said:

I’m just trying to understand more about chord theory, so I’m sure that the more knowledgeable people will be able to comment more.
I think that major 7 chords contain a minor triad a third above the root, and minor 7 chords contain a major triad a third above the root.
When I refer to major 7 chords, these are constructed from the major scale whilst minor 7 chords are constructed from the minor scale.

This is an odd way to explain it, but you're right. Let's say we're in C major / A minor.

Cmaj7 has CEGB in it. It does contain EGB which is a minor triad starting on the third of that scale.
Am7 has ACEG in it. It does contain CEG which is a major triad starting on the third of that scale.
What seems to be missing is knowledge of the intervals when building these chords?
Cmaj7 - C (major 3rd) E (minor third) G (major third) B. So you can see that EGB has a minor third followed by a major third, hence the minor third you found.
Am7 - A (minor 3rd) C (major third) E (minor third) G. So there's the major triad there on C, i.e. major third followed by minor third.

CarpeDiem · December 2022

Thanks @ - that’s somewhat clearer than my explanation.

viz · December 2022

allen said:

Is there a way to explore similar similarities?

Yes there are lots of things like this, where an added note completely changes the “meaning” of the chord.

One example is changing the meaning of a dim7 chord, which consists of stacked minor 3rds (eg C# E G Bb) either by putting one of the notes at the bass - which solidifies the root of the chord - or by adding another note at the bass, thus redefining one of the existing notes as a flat9 note. Eg if you add a low A, you change the chord to an A7 with a flat 9 on top. But if instead you put an Eb in the bass, you get Eb7 with a flat 9 in the middle.

Another, related, example is the famous tritone substitution:

In a 251 in C major, the 2 chord is Dm, the 5 chord is G7 (G B D F) and the 1 chord is C.

That G7 is made of a stacked major 3rd, minor 3rd and minor 3rd. Now ignore the D for a moment and just play G B F. Between the B and F it’s two minor thirds, which makes a tritone (actually a diminished 5th).

Now, a tritone is exactly half an octave, so if you invert the top two notes, to G F B, then between the F and B you get an augmented 4th, which is also a tritone. It’s still a G7 chord, but the B is above the F this time, and there’s still a tritone between the F and B.

Now if you remove the bass note, the G, look at this: The B and F were the 3rd and 7th of G7, but when inverted to F and B, they can be thought of as the 3rd and 7th of an entirely new chord, one tritone away from G, which is Db!

Db7 has F as its 3rd note and B as it’s 7th note. (In full, it would be Db F Ab B.)

So instead of the original 2-5-1 you can play 2-b2-1. That’s the tritone sub. The chords would be Dm-Db7-C. It sounds instantly jazzy.

So, that’s amazing. Just by playing F and B, and oscillating your bass note between G and Db, you get totally different 7th chords, by switching the role of the 3rd and the 7th notes. Try it!

By the way, I do your example in your OP in Message in a Bottle, where he’s repeating “I hope that someone get my”, I alternate between f#m7 (x 9 11 9 10 x) and Dmaj7 (10 x 11 9 10 x). It means that you don’t need to move your hand, just your index finger, and it sounds delicious.

HAL9000 · December 2022

allen said:

But then if you move the triad to strings 2/3/4 you get (I think you'd call that first inversion)

Robert Cray often plays minor chords like this. I quite the minor / major 7th ambiguity of this voicing.

Cranky · January 2023

allen said:

So, I was messing about with some minor triads on the top 3 strings.

Here's Am

So far, so easy.

But then if you move the triad to strings 2/3/4 you get (I think you'd call that first inversion)

And then if you add an F on top it suddenly turns into an Fmaj7

Well, it was a revelation for me I suppose. Is there a way to explore similar similarities?

What you're describing is what CAGED did for me a year or so ago. Every chord implies another, oh so slightly. A very cool feeling when some of that fog lifts.

For similar similarities, something cool that I learned from Pat Martino's course on TrueFire is how the Augmented and Diminished chords imply each other, respectively. For example, play a diminished shape, and then move it up or down four semitones and you'll have the same chord but voiced differently. For augmented chords, it's five semitones up or down.

What I particularly like about this pattern is, using Cmaj as the key, since I know that a Bdim is an inverted G7, that means I have multiple voicings for that Bdim that I can readily use as an alternative to the G7.

For augmented chords, say you're playing in C melodic minor. You'll have an Eb augmented chord: Eb-G-B. So now play that same shape rooted on either the Eb, G or B and you'll have the same chord voiced differently. Further still, if you start at the Eb on the low E string, that same pattern (accounting for how the B string shifts everything up a semitone) repeats on the next three strings all the way down to the high E.

Also, if you play for example an A7 in the exact spot that your Am is on the top three strings (frets 9-8-9), drop the D down to a Db and you have an F7 or an Fmin7 (depending on what you do with the D string).

viz · January 2023

Cranky said:

For similar similarities, something cool that I learned from Pat Martino's course on TrueFire is how the Augmented and Diminished chords imply each other, respectively.

What I like about the aug and dim arpeggios, is that if you play, say, G#aug and G#dim7, you have all the notes in the Am harmonic scale (apart from the A itself)

And because these arpeggios have repeating patterns across the strings and up theFretboard it means you can play easy awesome phrygian dominant licks over the E, before resolving to the A minor. (You can also think Eaug and Fdim7 if that’s easier)

Jazzy_Jake · January 2023

A cool thing to do to explore this idea as fully as possible (but a bit more abstract and less immediately useful) is to take any triad (let's say Am, as in your example) and then work through the chromatic scale starting from A# putting every possible note in the bass. This will let you explore every possibility of triads over bass notes.

Another cool thing about this way of thinking - in your example you have an Am triad over an F bass to give an F major 7 chord - if you move the triad to the next diatonic triad down in the F major scale but keep the F in the bass, you get a new chord containing upper extensions of the F major 7 (in this case it will now be a G minor triad, which gives you a G, Bb and D so the 9th, 11th and 13th of F major) - these are interesting chords that miss the 3rd and 7th so they sound very ambiguous.

The final frontier of this kind of idea is also fairly powerful - you can play any triad that contains at least one diatonic note from a given chord over that chord (so for example on an F major 7 you can play any triad that contains at least one of F, G, A C or E) as it will contain one chord tone and then two other notes that are usually upper extensions.

allen · January 2023

Thanks people. Some very interesting ideas here. So much to learn!

Stuckfast · January 2023

Cranky said:

For similar similarities, something cool that I learned from Pat Martino's course on TrueFire is how the Augmented and Diminished chords imply each other, respectively. For example, play a diminished shape, and then move it up or down four semitones and you'll have the same chord but voiced differently. For augmented chords, it's five semitones up or down.

What I particularly like about this pattern is, using Cmaj as the key, since I know that a Bdim is an inverted G7, that means I have multiple voicings for that Bdim that I can readily use as an alternative to the G7.

Surely it's three semitones for a diminished chord and four for an augmented chord, not four and five respectively?

Also, I expect someone more knowledgeable than me will be along in a moment, but strictly speaking it doesn't seem right to me to call Bdim an inversion of G7, since it doesn't contain a G natural. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it a substitution rather than an inversion?

Cranky · January 2023

viz said:

Cranky said:

For similar similarities, something cool that I learned from Pat Martino's course on TrueFire is how the Augmented and Diminished chords imply each other, respectively.

What I like about the aug and dim arpeggios, is that if you play, say, G#aug and G#dim7, you have all the notes in the Am harmonic scale (apart from the A itself)

And because these arpeggios have repeating patterns across the strings and up theFretboard it means you can play easy awesome phrygian dominant licks over the E, before resolving to the A minor. (You can also think Eaug and Fdim7 if that’s easier)

That’s the part of theory that I really haven’t looked at yet, it still kinda overwhelms me. I get chord tones and how scale can be used to structure different triads and voice leading options. But when a mode name gets married to a specific chord, I go cross eyed. I’m anticipating, but not actively seeking, that aha moment as I plug along.

@Stuckfast the first semitone is the one itself, if that makes sense. I said it wrong initially, I’m sure. But I lazily rely on Viz to set things straight, as I’m still at the stage where I understand most of what I hear but don’t fully speak the language myself.

And you’re right, substitution is the better word for it. Unless you make it a Bdim/G or just let the bass player take the G. ;-). Consistent with my laziness, as I keep reading about chords and scales and see how different schools have different names for the same thing, I’ve slacked off a bit in my own terms for things.

viz · January 2023

Cranky said:

viz said:

Cranky said:

For similar similarities, something cool that I learned from Pat Martino's course on TrueFire is how the Augmented and Diminished chords imply each other, respectively.

What I like about the aug and dim arpeggios, is that if you play, say, G#aug and G#dim7, you have all the notes in the Am harmonic scale (apart from the A itself)

And because these arpeggios have repeating patterns across the strings and up theFretboard it means you can play easy awesome phrygian dominant licks over the E, before resolving to the A minor. (You can also think Eaug and Fdim7 if that’s easier)

That’s the part of theory that I really haven’t looked at yet, it still kinda overwhelms me. I get chord tones and how scale can be used to structure different triads and voice leading options. But when a mode name gets married to a specific chord, I go cross eyed. I’m anticipating, but not actively seeking, that aha moment as I plug along.

@Stuckfast the first semitone is the one itself, if that makes sense. I said it wrong initially, I’m sure. But I lazily rely on Viz to set things straight, as I’m still at the stage where I understand most of what I hear but don’t fully speak the language myself.

And you’re right, substitution is the better word for it. Unless you make it a Bdim/G or just let the bass player take the G. ;-). Consistent with my laziness, as I keep reading about chords and scales and see how different schools have different names for the same thing, I’ve slacked off a bit in my own terms for things.

The a-ha moment is really that the major and minor scales are like white paint; other modes and scales add colour.

The major and minor pentatonics are like clear varnish - they actually lack some notes or their respective 7-note scales. They’re not even white.

Then once you know the sound of the major penta, and the major scale, you can add the colour notes - the 4 and the 7. You can have a normal 4 or an augmented (raised) one, and you can have an ordinary major 7th, or a minor (lowered) one.

Same with minor, except it’s the 2 and the 6 that you play with.

Then for major, you could do even more strange things like lower the 2nd and the 6th. That’s the double harmonic, or snake charmer, scale.

Or for minor, as well as altering the 2 or the 6, you could also raise the 7th.

You can also do other things, like in minor, you can lower the 2, and raise the 6. (That’s a mode of melodic minor). Or you can lower the 2, raise the 6 AND raise the 7. That’s a neapolitan scale. It’s lovely.

The other stuff, like phrygian dominant, is just the notes of harmonic minor, but played from the 5th to the 5th, when the 5th chord is playing. So it’s the same scale as harmonic minor played from 1 to 8 while the 1 chord is playing. Same notes, just played over the dominant chord.

Once you have a mental map of the notes it slots into place, and the unique colours that deviate from the plain white stick out.

Cranky · February 2023

@allen ;

another accidental and generalizable discovery: Dmin and Bdim are nearly the same chord. Dmin could be Bdim/D, or Bdim could be Dmin/B.

Try playing 10-10-10 on the high strings. Play 12 on the D string for proper Dmin, or 9 on the D string for the Bdim. A little vamp between Cmaj7 and any Dmin or Bdim shows how similar it all is (and how much we can work with the bass player to articulate the differences).

Stuckfast · February 2023

Cranky said:

Try playing 10-10-10 on the high strings. Play 12 on the D string for proper Dmin, or 9 on the D string for the Bdim.

This is a cool move for sure but just to be pedantic, it's not a Bdim, because it has A natural in it rather than A flat / G sharp. I think in most contexts that chord xx9101010 would function as a G dominant 9th with the root missing. A Bdim chord in that position would be xx910910.

Cranky · February 2023

Stuckfast said:

Cranky said:

Try playing 10-10-10 on the high strings. Play 12 on the D string for proper Dmin, or 9 on the D string for the Bdim.

This is a cool move for sure but just to be pedantic, it's not a Bdim, because it has A natural in it rather than A flat / G sharp. I think in most contexts that chord xx9101010 would function as a G dominant 9th with the root missing. A Bdim chord in that position would be xx910910.

So I get diminished and “half diminished” confused.

So a diminished chord has to have a flat 7?

Stuckfast · February 2023

Viz will be along in a minute to point out the error of my ways, but in my understanding, a diminished chord is the chord you get by building minor thirds on top of one another. So it has a minor third, diminished fifth and diminished seventh (major sixth). If B is the root the other notes are D, F, A flat.

guitarjack66 · February 2023

Fascinating stuff. The problem is that debates like this are very hard for some,me especially,to understand without a visual demonstration. I find the likes of youtube very helpful,once you separate the wheat from the chaff,because of it's visual demos.

Cranky · February 2023

Stuckfast said:

Viz will be along in a minute to point out the error of my ways, but in my understanding, a diminished chord is the chord you get by building minor thirds on top of one another. So it has a minor third, diminished fifth and diminished seventh (major sixth). If B is the root the other notes are D, F, A flat.

My thinking was that the chord you’re describing is a “jazzier” version with the flattened flat 7. The one I was working with is the Bdim that fits the Cmaj scale. More tension in your version.

Cranky · February 2023

guitarjack66 said:

Fascinating stuff. The problem is that debates like this are very hard for some,me especially,to understand without a visual demonstration. I find the likes of youtube very helpful,once you separate the wheat from the chaff,because of it's visual demos.

Nah, no debate. Just chatting.

The best visual is your guitar in your hands.

You probably know the D major chord in the “E” shape up at fret 10. Now, instead of playing all 6 strings, only barre fret 10 all the way down (no other fingers in play) and play only the top 3 strings (the high notes). That’s a Dmin. I like to finger pick these chords and tap the low D (on the bottom E string).

Now you can also use your ring finger to fret a higher octave D on fret 12 of the D string. All we are doing is making a traditional barre chord work for us how we want it to.

Now barre the same 3 strings at fret 10, but use your middle or ring finger. The 9th fret of the D string is a B. Play that B over the barred Dmin.

These are the ii and vii chords of C major.

viz · February 2023

Cranky said:

Stuckfast said:

Cranky said:

Try playing 10-10-10 on the high strings. Play 12 on the D string for proper Dmin, or 9 on the D string for the Bdim.

This is a cool move for sure but just to be pedantic, it's not a Bdim, because it has A natural in it rather than A flat / G sharp. I think in most contexts that chord xx9101010 would function as a G dominant 9th with the root missing. A Bdim chord in that position would be xx910910.

So I get diminished and “half diminished” confused.

So a diminished chord has to have a flat 7?

The diminished 7th chord has a diminished 7th - that’s one note flatter than a flat 7th. So 1 b3 b5 bb7 (C, Eb, Gb, Bbb - which sounds like A). It’s made of stacked minor 3rds.

The 1 b3 b5 b7 chord is a half-dimished chord.

And the diminished chord is just the 1 b3 b5.

If you fancy some stacked minor 3rds (descending), the last 10 seconds of the 1st movement of Mahler’s 2nd symphony is fucking awesome.

22:00

https://youtu.be/4MPuoOj5TIw

joeW · February 2023

viz said:
What I like about the aug and dim arpeggios, is that if you play, say, G#aug and G#dim7, you have all the notes in the Am harmonic scale (apart from the A itself)

And because these arpeggios have repeating patterns across the strings and up theFretboard it means you can play easy awesome phrygian dominant licks over the E, before resolving to the A minor. (You can also think Eaug and Fdim7 if that’s easier)

thank for pointing this out @viz - really interesting. Am new to rhythm changes and this could be very helpful indeed

Danny1969 · February 2023

A trick I use for half diminished is play the relative major chord in minor over your bass note so

Play Cm over an A bass note for Ao

Bm over a bass note of G# for G#o

It's a cool trick because most guitarist already know a least 4 voicings over the neck for a minor chord so it's easy to use at the spur of the moment .... great as a passing chord to the major a semitone done ... like how he does it in Hotel California

Cranky · February 2023

joeW said:

viz said:
What I like about the aug and dim arpeggios, is that if you play, say, G#aug and G#dim7, you have all the notes in the Am harmonic scale (apart from the A itself)

And because these arpeggios have repeating patterns across the strings and up theFretboard it means you can play easy awesome phrygian dominant licks over the E, before resolving to the A minor. (You can also think Eaug and Fdim7 if that’s easier)

thank for pointing this out @viz - really interesting. Am new to rhythm changes and this could be very helpful indeed

And I’ll add to this the importance of writing things down. Viz has pointed out such a fascinating aspect of this scale, but also by knowing how triads are built out of a scale we can see what I never would have expected until I stumbled upon in by accident a few weeks ago: G#aug and G#dim7 are not mutually exclusive here — they both belong to the same scale.

At least for me, writing it helps me see it more clearly.

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Had a strange revelation about minor triads and a major seventh triad

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