Cheap fingerstyle guitar (yes, really)

Tannin · October 2022

I'm toying with the idea of buying a really cheap acoustic. Yes, me. Really.

I'm going to spend two or three weeks in Sri Lanka shortly (as is my habit every few years, I love the place) and face the following options:

* 1: Take a guitar with me. (No way. Not in that climate. Anyway, I'd have to pay a fortune in excess baggage or book a seat for it.)
* 2: Go three weeks without playing. (Not sure I want to do that. And I dread to think how far back my skills will have gone when I get back.)
* 3: Buy something when I get there. Give it to someone when I fly home.

So how much do I need to spend to get something playable? Is a £100 guitar worth having? Would it frustrate the hell out of me? Or be good enough to do the job? What is the collective wisdom re £100 and £200 guitars?

drippycat · October 2022

What about the PRS SE P20? A parlour sized guitar & music radar have an announcement at the moment that Thomann have them on sale for £268.

thomasross20 · October 2022

I think a good idea to have something like this. I regret selling my old Taylor Mini - was so so handy to carry around if needed to.

drofluf · October 2022

Unless you're very lucky I'd expect to have to do a setup on a guitar in that price range; I think the logistics of getting something set up the way you like it may be a little challenging so if you take option 3 you need to be prepared to do it yourself and spend part of your holiday doing it.

Tannin · October 2022

Cheers chaps. It would have to be something I can pick up in Colombo (two or three hours out of my way) or more likely Negombo.

Looking on-line, the music shops there mostly seem to stock cheapies from Yamaha, Aston, and a few others. I did love the High Street music shop I saw offering a "Martin D-28 Dreadnought (replica)" for Rs. 57,500 (£140) complete with Martin badging! The funny thing is, the manufacturer (doubtless in China) has copied the shape and look very closely, even down to the shape of the headstock and the badging, but made it with a most un-Martin-like 43mm nut to suit smaller hands.

Anyway, I'l have a very limited range to choose from, particularly given the economic upheaval they are only just starting to recover from. I'm mainly looking to see what people think of very cheap guitars these days.

(I don't want to go into a local music shop here in Oz and try stuff out when I have no intention of buying it here. I don't feel right doing that.)

Mellish · October 2022

Giving the guitar away on returning, maybe to someone who can't afford to buy?

Mate, that's commendable and confirms what I already knew. Have a wis.

Jaycee · October 2022

Mellish said:

Giving the guitar away on returning, maybe to someone who can't afford to buy?

Mate, that's commendable and confirms what I already knew. Have a wis.

Agreed, and buying the guitar out there means its already used to the climate

BillDL · October 2022

You could buy one of the local "Givson" acoustics for 3,999 rupees ($75.81 AUS).

The G150 Standard (wonder if there is a Pro or Deluxe model) is described as: "6 String Accoustic Spanish Guitar (R- Hole)". Was R-Hole an abbreviation or a mispronounciation?

https://shreesaimusical.com/product/g-150-standard/

Pay particular attention to the font and overall appearance of the "Givson" logo.

There are no specs shown, probably because they fluctuate according to what kind of plywood is available. The zero nut and adjustable 70s style saddle mean that the makers don't have to be too finnicky with the nut slots or saddle. The quirky coin tuner buttons (or are they just short billets lathed off a metal bar?) and large treble clef symbol on the scratchplate accentuate the retro feel.

Perhaps you might be better using your time there fruitfully and learning something different?
https://shreesaimusical.com/product-category/sitar-veena/sitar/

JonnyBgoode · October 2022

I'd get a 2nd hand travel/silent guitar. Dismantle to travel with no risks, you'll have it every time you go to Sri Lanka or anywhere else, no waste throwing it away or whatever. Some headphones and away you go.

Yamahas are the best but pricey. I have an Aria Sinsonido steel strung and used to have the nylon version when my focus was classical/flamenco. I used to take it all over the place - travelling, to work etc. Last month one went for £122 on Ebay.

Agree with earlier point that -especially with budget range acoustics - you are going to need a setup so factor in that cost if you go down that route or you will be put off playing an acoustic.. Most shop cheapo acoustics have the nut and bridge way too high. Note - the Sinsonido has a height adjustable bridge :-)

malcolmkindness · October 2022

I don't know anything about Sri Lanka but a few years ago I bought a second hand Suzuki classical in Cambodia for $100 and it served me well. The shop owner said that if I wanted to return it at any time he would charge me $1 a day for the use of it.

Tannin · October 2022

Cheers all. Some great responses. Working backwards uip the thread:

@JonnyBgoode you are making sense. Two factor prevent that. One is that a Yamaha Silent Guitar won't fit in my luggage. (I looked at one in Hobart last week.) I am restricted there because the purpose of my trip is wildlife photography. I essentially take a two shirts, a pair of undies, and a whole stack of photographic equipment on the flight, and that maxes out the 30kg limit. Are there ways around that? Probably. The second is that I'm limited to what I can buy here in Tasmania (a very small state, about 2% of Australia's population). I sometimes shop in Melbourne (Australia's largest city, about the same size as Birmingham or Manchester) but won't have time to do that this time.

Longer-term, I'm thinking I want a travel guitar for the outback trips I do, where space isn't really an issue (within reason), nor weight, but durability is. (Heat, humidity, vibration.) For that, an orthodox non-folding acoustic would make sense, but in carbon fibre. Sometimes I toy with the idea of an Emerald, though there are many others. (Obviously, that wouldn't help with a Sri Lanka trip.)

@BillDL - you are a funny man.

It's a three week trip. I don't think I've got time to learn the sitar. Hey - I've been playing guitar for 50 years and haven't mastered it yet, you reckon I can get up to speed on sitar in three weeks?

@Mellish and @Jaycee - It's not so altruistic. It's probably the cheapest way to have a guitar for three weeks. But yes, I'll try to give it to someone who will benefit from it. I mean for you or me, £150 is something we can spend on a night out or a new jumper or a car service and not even blink. No big deal.

Finally, the thing I really want to know is how satisfying is a £150 guitar going to be? Is it even worth doing? (The setup I can deal with. I'm not going to worry about that.)

malcolmkindness · October 2022

Finally, the thing I really want to know is how satisfying is a £150 guitar going to be? Is it even worth doing? (The setup I can deal with. I'm not going to worry about that.)

My second hand classical was excellent but I can't imagine a $150 new guitar being very good.
I once owned a quite expensive Brunner travel guitar, thinking it would be a good idea to bring it as hand luggage, but the sound just wasn't there and it felt fiddly and small. Based on my experience, I would avoid travel guitars.

JonnyBgoode · October 2022

malcolmkindness said:

I once owned a quite expensive Brunner travel guitar, thinking it would be a good idea to bring it as hand luggage, but the sound just wasn't there and it felt fiddly and small. Based on my experience, I would avoid travel guitars.

Not all travel guitars are built with the same intention. Did yours have an onboard preamp? The guitars I mentioned are not designed to be played acoustically, which is why they are called silent guitars. You plug in headphones if you want volume - the Yamaha in particular has really good onboard electrics with onboard fx etc. They are excellent for playing in hotel rooms, or if you want to practice at night at home without waking the kids.

I can see why a small folding truly acoustic guitar would be unsatisfying though, too much of a compromise.

LastMantra · October 2022

Tbh I don't think you will forget how to play in three weeks. I have found a wee break does me the world of good.

bertie · October 2022

LastMantra said:

Tbh I don't think you will forget how to play in three weeks. I have found a wee break does me the world of good.

I think you're right, a small break (like after a week or three on holiday) really gets the enthusiasm back up

Ive had two "enforced breaks" of 4 and 6 months through injury/surgery.

The single biggest issue was - callouses, or lack of - took me a couple of weeks the first time, but I did some "prep" the second time - just very firmly rubbing fingers up and down strings -

the muscle memory soon returned

stufisher · October 2022

Not sure if this idea would hold water but I'll suggest it anyway.

I bought one of these babies via eBay for £70, in June this year. It's a great little guitar and perfect for my campervan travels and just kicking around. It sounds way better than it should.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_gs_travel_e_spruce.htm

The issue you'd have is shipping. I'm not sure Thomann ship to Sri Lanka as a matter of course but as they have very approachable and helpful customer service folk you could drop them a line and explain your travel plan and subsequent charitable intention.

It's such an unusual request they might see the marketing potential ... "nature photographer takes HB into Asian wilderness and gifts it to the needy" ... ambitious marketeers would bite yer arm off.

It's poss that they'd ship to your hotel and you could offer them a write-up about the guitar's adventures and playability in remote, challenging climes ... really big them up. Quid pro quo!

Shy bairns get nowt.

Good luck

Soupman · October 2022

@Tannin - A lot of hassle for a 3 week break. I'd go cold turkey. Just think of the joy you'd have returning to the stable!
Besides, if it's a photo break, much of your non- shoot time is going to be reviewing the day's efforts is it not?
Best of luck & have a great trip anyway.

Tannin · October 2022

That's great thinking @stufisher

Image: /plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/1.gif

And they do. Just for fun I looked up the shipping cost, which was remarkably reasonable at £52 - compare with .....

.........

....... Sorry about that. Big rabbit hole! I've looked at Thomann shipping before, for strings, and it is very expensive. Also, they only use UPS couriers, which is sensible for a fancy new guitar but ridiculous for a set of strings. So anyway I plugged my home address for that same guitar into their website and Hey Presto! they were asking an insane £223 to ship to me here at home. Australia isn't so terribly different to (e.g.) California or Japan for actual freight costs (as opposed to the insane amount Thomann are asking) - say 30% to 50% more as a rough guide. (Nothing like the 330% they want!) But hang on a mo, what if I plug in an address in mainland Australia (it does cost a little more - and I do mean a little more) to put the usual interstate delivery truck on the roll-on roll-off ferry overnight. So I put a Victorian address in and suddenly Thomann only wanted £101, which is a bit steep but not completely unreasonable in these post-pandemic times.

Anyway, valuable lesson learned. When I order strings from Thomann (which I plan to do because they have a few interesting ones I can't get in the USA, and also they have much better prices on Pyramid than the Americans or Australians) send them to a friend on the mainland, who can post them over to me for $10 extra instead of Thomann's insane $212 extra (£122).

Apologies for the interruption. We now return you to our normal programming.

That is broadly the sort of thing I'll be looking at. But in the end, if I go to a music shop in Negombo or Colombo I can actually try guitars out and buy one that sounds OK and is playable. (Or not buy one if I don't like any of them.)

Or, as @LastMantra and @bertie very sensibly point out, three weeks isn't a very long time to not play for. @Soupman I tend not to spend long reviewing pictures in the field. I mostly just upload, make nightly backups, and have a quick squiz at a few random samples. Proper reviewing I do at home where I have proper photographic monitor. (Even the best laptop screens are pretty sad little things compared to the real thing. A bit like travel guitars maybe?)

Anyway, I think I'll just make a short detour to the music shops on my first day in-country (I'll be well away from the big cities the rest of the time, so it's first day or nothing), try a few guitars, and if I like one and find it reasonably playable, buy it.

Below: view from my hotel balcony near Sinharaja, November 2018. I'll ask for the same room this year. Now is that a nice place to sit and play or is that a nice place to sit and play?

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/181104-062726-2.jpg

stufisher · October 2022

Good plan @Tannin ; ... that's my sort of place for sure ... I'm sure you'll reacquaint yourself quickly and have a whole new set of experiences to capture.

When you do your quick squiz reviews it'd be good if you posted a few on tFB ... just so we know that you're alive and well

... and to curse and swear, green with envy of course

Hope all goes to plan and you have a wonderful adventure.

Best,

Stu

Mellish · October 2022

@Tannin ; - you know the rules mate, pics of Sri Lanka or you didn't go

Enjoy your break

JRgtar · October 2022

Have you thought about a Martin Backpacker? Can fit inside some cases or in overhead locker (apparently). I get loads of use from mine, ridiculously easy to just take with you on a car trip, I love it! Thoman also do a Baby Taylor equivalent, that could also fit in a case (Delta Blues T or something?). Travel guitars basically come in all shapes and sizes, some suit better than others depending on what you need.

Tannin · October 2022

Cheers @JRgtar - yes. They are a very interesting looking unit. Too long to fit in my luggage, unfortunately. (I am constrained by my photographic equipment. A single good birding lens weighs 4.5kg and and is half a metre long - by the time I pack it safely, that's my hand luggage allowance gone already.) Plus there isn't one here in town (a Martin Backpacker, I mean) and I won't have the opportunity to do any shopping in Melbourne before I leave. One I get off the aeroplane, spoace is a non-issue, so a cheap fuil-size guitar will be fine.

I will have a look at the Martin Backpacker when I get around to shopping for a permanent travel guitar one of these days. (Sri Lanka is an exception. I do all my other travel by road. I can fit a full-size guitar into my vehicle but it it does make things a bit tight if I'm away for any length of time, so a smaller one is worth considering. No hurry for any of that though.

Tannin · October 2022

Channeling my inner @Emp_Fab .....

I have previously considered buying a nylon string guitar. (A proper one I mean, not a cheapie.) It's still something I'd like to try. Trouble is, I don't have any friends who own one I can borrow, so I really need to buy one to see how I adapt to playing nylon, and buying one is awkward because the local shops, which are pretty good on the steel string front, don't carry anything I'd want to buy and I won't go and play stuff I know I'm not going to buy.

So I vacillate between buying a cheapie to try out, saying "hell no!" and buying something decent, and just putting the whole idea into the too hard basket.

Anyway, it occurs to me that, seeing as I'm going to buy a cheap throwaway guitar anyway, why not try a nylon and kill two birds with the same stone? I have made arrangements with my guide to call into a music shop in Negombo and I'll try a few different guitars, buy whichever one I like - very possibly a nylon strung one. (But I will decide between steel and nylon on the spot.) If you are curious, this is the shop - https://miyasiya-music-parlour.business.site/ It's on our way to the Chillaw Wetlands

QUESTIONS:

(1) I'm going to play whatever I buy and I can make my own judgements about price, tone and playability, no worries there. But is there anything I should know about nylon string guitars that (as a 50-year steel-string guy) I won't think to look out for? Longevity isn't a big deal, obviously.

(2) What about strings? I'll take a fresh set of steel strings with me (Sunbeams should work on anything), but what is a sensible one-size-fits-all nylon string? The shop there will have a limited range, but doubtless something.

drofluf · October 2022

String wise I’d try these I’d suggest D’Addario Pro Arté EJ 45, they’re probably the equivalent of EJ16s.

They also do a “Folk Nylon” version that has ball ends that may save the hassle of learning to tie nylon strings which can be a hassle until you get the knack.

You’ll have a more local supplier but these are the strings

https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings-c1/string-sets-c865/classical-guitar-c288/daddario-ej45-pro-arte-classical-normal-tension-guitar-strings-p2286?currency=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAjwqJSaBhBUEiwAg5W9p2lXpSrMQXe8jISeJAWVdYCS-9vznVa1RPT0j46HPoc-O06vNjO1YRoCX0EQAvD_BwE#fo_c=1949&fo_k=b0c6c94036f262e2e8679801bb1a095d&fo_s=gplauk&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=

Cig35 · October 2022

Nylon string guitars:

1) Action is quite a bit higher than on steel-strings so don't be surprised about that. Yamaha recommends 4 mm on the 6th string at 12th fret but it may well be a bit higher and that is not a problem. Nylon string guitars have no truss rod so the relief is what it is and cannot be adjusted, so check that it is OK when looking at the guitar.

2) Agree on D'addario EJ45s as good one-size-fits-all strings. When changing strings, remember to check how the strings are tied to the bridge before removing the old ones so you know how to do it with the new ones. It's not difficult. And when changing string it will take quite some time before the new strings stay in tune so be prepared to tune the guitar quite often for a period of time.

Shadow · October 2022

Try a crossover guitar? Typically 48mm nut rather than 50 plus for a traditional classical, radiused fretboard and usually a truss rod.

drofluf · October 2022

Cig35 said:

And when changing string it will take quite some time before the new strings stay in tune so be prepared to tune the guitar quite often for a period of time.

Just to add to that. When the strings stay in tune that’s the sign that it’s time to fit a fresh set

Tannin · October 2022

Cheers and thanks to all. Advice on board. Tuesday morning - which for once will actually be Tuesday morning for you lot and me too 'coz I'll be in (almost) the same time zone - I'll pick out my three-week temporary love. Steel string or nylon? I'll decide that on the spot depending on which one seems like fun to play for a few weeks.

I've been away from home for just over a week now (Mrs Tannin and I had a one-week holiday in northern Tasmania, she's just got home and I'm going on to SL) and it is quite odd being without a guitar. Several times a day I go to reach for one and then remember that I don't have one here. Weird!

DrHungry · October 2022

This anecdote is of no help to you at all, but I remember travelling to Sydney for 3 months, must have been about 15 years ago. After roughly a fortnight my guitar withdrawal got so acute that I visited a music shop in the CBD and bought the cheapest thing they stocked that could be described as a guitar - a $60 Aston nylon string.

I took it to the botanic gardens and spent one of my happiest music related experiences sat on the grass tunelessly bashing out any and every song I could remember while the sun set behind the harbour bridge. Acquiring it significantly increased my enjoyment of those few months and I even got to take it home, as back in the day they let me take it into the cabin on the plane as extra hand baggage free of charge.

One afternoon when we were travelling somewhere in Queensland, my mates and I painted it with "Aboriginal" motifs which at the time we thought was awesome. It's turned into a bulky, horrible sounding and playing piece of questionable cultural appropriation that is one of my most treasured memories and can never be got rid of!

Here's the view from that happy afternoon in the botanic gardens!

Tannin · October 2022

I arrived in Sri Lanka last night around midnight and found myself in the guitar shop at 9:30 this morning. I played a couple, the obvious candidate being a Yamaha F310. It was basically awful. It was straight enough and the action was fine, it just sounded like crap warmed up. How much of that was due to the guitar and how much the very tired strings I'm not sure. The chap in the shop wanted me to play various others but every guitar was out of tune and I mean way out. I didn't fancy spending an hour tuning every guitar in the place just so I could try them.

So, rather against his notions, I just walked around pinging strings without picking anything up. Did that to maybe 20 guitars. A couple stood out as obviously superior. One was a fake Gibson jumbo (which would have been a bit of a giggle), the other another Yamaha.

I tuned this second Yamaha properly, played it, thought "that'll do". In the end I didn't even look at the nylon stringers, I felt as though finding an ordinary steel-string that was nice to play was challenging enough.

But then - "Oh wait!" I thought - "I bet I've picked out the only expensive guitar in the shop - it's miles better than most of the rest of the stuff". One thing I had noticed straight away was that it had a more prominent grain on the top, almost like Red Spruce. Better ask the price!

However it turned out to be another F310, either damaged or a factory second, it has 2 or 3 chips in the soundboard, neatly filled with clear poly. For that reason, it was marked down and sitting with the second-hand stock. But it sounded miles better than most of the others, including the undamaged F310.

I paid Rs42500 - $181 or £101 plus Rs5900 (£14) for a soft case. Happy with that.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/221025_122329_5D4c.jpg

Tannin · October 2022

On trying it out properly, the big problem was the very sticky strings. It was really difficult to play. Yes, I could put a set of Sunbeams on it, but what about lubrication? I didn't bring any Fast-fret but isn't that stuff mostly mineral oil? So I tried a tiny, tiny bit of Vaseline. Worked like a charm! Vastly nicer to play, and I might just keep the factory strings for the next couple of weeks.

The Yamaha F310 is a student dreadnought. The top is solid spruce, the back and sides are laminated who-knows-what, probably nato, and the fretboard is claimed to be rosewood, which I doubt. But it plays in tune or close enough, the feel is just fine bar the 43mm nut which is very small in my hands, and it sounds decent. Better than decent actually. Put it this way, suppose I was booked to play a gig and at the last moment couldn't use one of my nice guitars. Could I get by on this one at a pinch? Sure I could - though I'd make a lot of mistakes on that too-narrow neck.

It's actually slightly undersize in all dimensions. The body is smallish for a dread and slightly slimmer (these changes make it very comfortable to play) and it has a Gibson-like 634mm scale length, which (for once!) I'm OK with.

In the end, for not much money I have a perfectly playable guitar and have learned new respect for Yamaha - producing something this playable for bugger-all money is a real achievement. I'm a bit sorry I'm not going to take it home.

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Cheap fingerstyle guitar (yes, really)

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