Am I being unreasonable (singer issues)

RedRabbit · September 2013

A couple of nights ago we had a fairly stressful practice. We were trying out quite a lot of new material just to get a yay, nay or "meh, I'll do it if you want" off the rest of the band.

Our singer/bass player was struggling with some of it - coming in too late/early, missing cues. I didn't really mind as it was all fairly new stuff so I just commented on it (not nastily as far as I'm aware) and suggested that he watches for it in future. Towards the end of the night he came in a few bars to early during an instrumental section and seemed determined to soldier on. Had he done this live I'd have tried to compensate the best I could and carry on but with it being a practice and a fairly tricky situation to recover from I simply stopped playing, told him he came in to early and was motioning to pick up from the start of the section again but he dismisses it and calls to just skip to the outro and finish the song off. It was getting late and we were pushed for time so I just went with it. Again, I wasn't that bothered as we were getting tired and was sure he'd either sort it out for next time or we could spend more time on it.

However, today I've had an email saying that we should try to "work around his phrasing" and, should he drop a beat or bar or two occasionally, that we should do the same.

I accept that we all make mistakes and in a live setting I'd never dream of stopping playing because of a mistake and would do all I could to compensate but I'm not prepared to start glossing over mistakes in rehearsals that can be put right with some extra practice or changing things around a bit.

It seems like he wants the rhythm section to start playing reactively based upon what he does as with the vocals - if he reaches a change a beat to early we should just drop that beat and catch up with him. This goes against all the time and effort I've put into being a solid rhythm player and, in my opinion, isn't how we should be approaching things. If he get the rest of the band to go along with him then I think we'll be taking a huge step backwards and, above all else, will sound as if we don't know what we're doing. It's not a situation I want to be part of so I'm threatening to leave the band. It's not something I want to do as they are all mates and bands to join are plentiful around here.

jaygtr · September 2013

My 1st reaction is that your not being unreasonable. Even if its just a band with mates for fun, that's not a reason to not be as good as you can possibly be, if only for personal satisfaction.

Especially if its something that can be sorted with a bit of hard work.
Although if you are basically happy with the band you are in , I wouldn't necessarily threaten to leave just yet.

Lixarto · September 2013

I had a singer like that. Now I have no singer.

randomhandclaps · September 2013

The 'go with me' excuse never washes for me. A good piece should be rehearsed so it can be repeated almost effortless in the most stressful of situations - that's what great bands do.

Yes we all make mistakes, but for him to randomly keep changing (or f'king up in reality) means he needs to practice more.

The thing about good improvisers and spontaneous performers is they know inherently where the core of the song is to return to.

My opinion based on what you have said is that you have the right attitude.

monquixote · September 2013

It's something you do live not something you do in rehearsals.

If he wants to improvise go join a jazz group.

geepers0677 · September 2013

^ this.

John_P · September 2013

monquixote said:

It's something you do live not something you do in rehearsals.

If he wants to improvise go join a jazz group.

+1 one of my singers does this a fair bit live (we never rehearse anyway) but you just go with it to keep it looking slick. It shouldn't be the plan though - he sounds a bit of a diva. It might be that it's just a little flare up and he's looking to save face but you're not being unreasonable wanting to get it right

maltingsaudio · September 2013

Rehearsals aren't for practicing mistakes, but if he makes the same mistake in the same place everytime then its making the song your own!

However from how you described the situation, trying out new songs, getting late mates ect I would have let it go. The email he sent and your reaction to it maybe indicative of deeper problems in the band but I would have said it was an attempt to defuse the situation.

RedRabbit · September 2013

maltingsaudio said:

Rehearsals aren't for practicing mistakes, but if he makes the same mistake in the same place everytime then its making the song your own!

However from how you described the situation, trying out new songs, getting late mates ect I would have let it go. The email he sent and your reaction to it maybe indicative of deeper problems in the band but I would have said it was an attempt to defuse the situation.

The song I called a stop to wasn't a new one but it was one we'd not tried without the other guitarist before. There are deeper problems in the band - basically the guy who didn't turn up isn't really pulling his weight so we'd been discussing dropping down to just me on the guitar. The singer's email, to me, sounds as if he wants a similarly easy ride but doesn't want to face the same consequences. If it's just me (and possibly the drummer) who's interested in getting things right then I'm fighting a losing battle.

Having one half arsed member has diminished the amount of enjoyment I get from the band add in another and I just don't see the point of continuing as we are.

viz · September 2013

I agree. If you haven't got much emotional investment in it and you want to play with competent people who give a shit, then go and find them, you deserve it. It's fine for bands to just muck about and have a laugh, that can be very enjoyable, but if you want to be good and play with people of your commitment and ability, then you will always be frustrated. And lazily making mistakes again and again is a world away from being innovative and creating something new and interesting and artistic with intent.

fretmeister · September 2013

If he's a good singer, take his bass away and get a new bassist.

fretmeister · September 2013

and shag his missus obviously

Roaster · September 2013

I couldn't see it in the posts above, but is the band playing overs or original material? I know it shouldn't make any difference but it would be a whole lot worse if you are playing covers?

RocknRollDave · September 2013

How would he feel if you said "Ah, I can't get my head around these chords, I might throw an F in there or a Bm or maybe a D or pffft..an Eb...just go with me"

He's not up to the job and he needs one of those "shape up or naff off" conversations.

guitarfishbay · September 2013

I think it all depends on the work ethic instilled from day one, which in turn depends on the personalities of the band members.

In the bands I play in if we fall apart at practice we stop right away, and pick a section to restart from. If someone makes a mistake more than once in the same place we go over the parts to make sure they just haven't learned it wrong. Most of the time it is as simple as they've interpreted a rhythm incorrectly or have even just forgotten how to play it right. One bum note doesn't warrant a restart however everyone going out of time, or one person playing a part completely wrong does, for us anyway.

Everyone makes mistakes. So long as nobody is a prick about highlighting it nobody should have any problem with being told they're doing something wrong and helped with how to make it right. It is for the benefit of everyone, and it makes the band sound better. After all, you can't win at being an individual in a band, the band is only as good as the sum of its parts.

I could not be in a band with someone who wanted me to accept they don't want to play/sing things right purely because it is easier for them. Re-arranging a part to be within someone's playing/singing capabilities is ok, but telling the band they should be cool with inconsistent performances is not, IMO.

ESBlonde · September 2013

Playing bass and remembering lots of lyrics is a fair amount for a body to do. That said if he has memorised the song it should be less of a problem. If he's a reader then he needs the bars and breaks written too.

As Guitarist do you even sing harmonies? If you do how often do you miss a queue, sing the wrong harmony or add something that wasn't there?

Just trying to play devils advocate a little, but I suspect underlying problems within the band. Do not rehearse because you have booked and paid for the space, rehearse because you want/need to. When you are tired and concentration is shot Stop! Take a break or pack up completely so you don't all resent the situation. With singing it can pay dividends to sit at someones home with an acoustic guitar and practice vocals with the harmonies if they are complex although people who sing and play often need to do both in the band context as it feels strange to them otherwise.

Another useful step might be rehearsing with minimal gear and really listening to one another. It sounds counter productive but can pay dividends. And finally prearrange what you will rehearse so you don't stretch yourselves , always start and end with something you all know and love (created a good vibe).

This being in a band shit takes a lot of arranging and compromise, but usually it is better to be in a working band than not.

Phil_aka_Pip · September 2013

There's a time for improv. and a time for set pieces. Even improv. needs a structure (unless you're a free-form jazz band). Gratuitous dropping of beats (or even whole bars) is not on. Agreed with everyone else if it happens live you do your best to recover, but the point of practicing and rehearsing is so that you minimise the chance of it happening live.

I once tried to do some stuff with a bloke who did this sort of thing. He described himself as a "feel guy" and wouldn't tie himself down to a lead sheet because that "spoils the spontenaeity and the feeling, man". In the end I gave up.

How you get your bloke to realise that what he's doing is undesirable, and to want to change, is not easy to advise about, although some here might try. Gentleness and diplomacy are the order of the day.

PolarityMan · September 2013

I really feel you, I like to separate out bits where we're not tight neough and work on them in isolation then pull them back into the song but the drummer hates it.

I think what it comes down to is it really exposes when you cant play a part very well, especially when you go through slowly, and some people dont like doing that in front of others.

Thats fine if people take it away with them and work on it at home but all too often people say they'll do that and then continue playing the same part in the same shoddy manner

stickyfiddle · September 2013

If its the odd vocal cue early or late that's not a big deal if it works musically. If its entire verses or basslines played or sung wrong then that's just him not being up to it musically.

I was at a wedding at the weekend where the band's guitarist played Sex on Fire completely wrong. I know the intro is a bit tricksy on the timing but if I couldn't put up with someone playing the bendy chorus bits wrong as well. It's not better, or improv, it's just laziness or lack of ability (depending on whether he can hear it's wrong) but either way I couldn't be in a band that accepted that attitude.

Rehearsals are meant to be hard work so gigs are easy. It's MUCH better that way around than the opposite.

Cirrus · September 2013

I kind of read your singer's email as boiling down to "I don't know the songs and I think that's ok. You have to deal with it."

If my singer said that, I'd be a bit surprised. I'd probably tell him I don't feel comfortable in a performing band with such a laissez faire attitude to the songs - it wouldn't be fun for me.

steamabacus · September 2013

stickyfiddle said:
Rehearsals are meant to be hard work so gigs are easy. It's MUCH better that way around than the opposite.

Totally agree - if you're a gigging band, you work at rehearsals and play gigs.

If you don't gig/record/whatever, though, it's all play I suppose. You need to be playing music with people who share your level of commitment or it'll all end in tears.

RedRabbit · September 2013

Thanks for the input guys.

Had a chat with him about it and cleared the air a bit. I appreciate how much work he's got to do as singer and bass player but he's decided he wants to keep doing both and will work on both more. Turns out there were a few causes of the strop. Firstly, he was feeling frustrated after the tough practice and wasn't taking my recommendations well. Secondly, he's been trying to learn the bass and vocal parts simultaneously - he's decided to first get the bass parts sorted, then the vocals and then bring them together. We're going to start having mini practice sessions for just the two of us so we can work out niggles.

If he stays true to his word things should hopefully improve.

Phil_aka_Pip · September 2013

@RedRabbit good plan, Sir. Best of, and all that

mike257 · September 2013

There's a few threads over on Basschat discussing singing whilst bassing, with some good pointers on practice methods and plenty of real world experience shared , might be worth a look for him!

BenSirAmos · September 2013

I'm glad you seem to have found a way to work together. A bit of seeing things from each other's point of view is a real help.

Personally, I don't take a lot of notice of criticism of my singing style from people who aren't lead singers. Everyone seems to know the lyrics, the tune, the vocal cues and everything else much better than me - until I suggest that they sing the lead vocal on that number and then they shut up and bury their noses in the chord sheet.

I find singing much much harder than playing guitar - and, as lead singer, you find that all eyes are on you almost all of the time. If the guitarist screws up - if the audience notices - everyone looks at the singer/front man to find out what is going on. If they notice a mistake by the bass player, they look at the singer / front man. Drums go out of time? - they look at the front man.

I do try and get things right - and I like to hear what other people think of what I do, I try to correct mistakes I make and I love being in bands and being part of bands - but if I thought that I was carrying all the load, taking the front man role, doing all the singing AND playing bass while you were strumming a few chords, I would tell you your job was to back up the vocals not just read the chords.

monquixote · September 2013

Singing while playing bass can be hard.

When it's just straight 8's it's easy enough, but when you are playing something complex and singing at the same time (GIrls on Film springs to mind) you have to really get the bass parts committed to muscle memory and reply on the hands doing what they are told so you can concentrate on singing.

digitalscream · September 2013

BenSirAmos said:

Personally, I don't take a lot of notice of criticism of my singing style from people who aren't lead singers. Everyone seems to know the lyrics, the tune, the vocal cues and everything else much better than me - until I suggest that they sing the lead vocal on that number and then they shut up and bury their noses in the chord sheet.

Not convinced about that - it seems like a rather blinkered point of view. You don't have to be able to sing to be able to hear things that could be improved in the vocals, just like you don't have to be able to play guitar to hear what could be better, or bass, or drums etc...otherwise every producer out there would be out of a job.

BenSirAmos · September 2013

digitalscream said:

BenSirAmos said:

Personally, I don't take a lot of notice of criticism of my singing style from people who aren't lead singers. Everyone seems to know the lyrics, the tune, the vocal cues and everything else much better than me - until I suggest that they sing the lead vocal on that number and then they shut up and bury their noses in the chord sheet.

Not convinced about that - it seems like a rather blinkered point of view. You don't have to be able to sing to be able to hear things that could be improved in the vocals, just like you don't have to be able to play guitar to hear what could be better, or bass, or drums etc...otherwise every producer out there would be out of a job.

But there is a difference - not everyone thinks that they know all about guitaring if they've never played - but they think they know how to sing because they were in the choir in sunday school.

I imagine it is the same for drummers though - everyone knows how to play drums, right?

meltedbuzzbox · September 2013

As the voice is an instrument, another musician can identify whether something is out of time or out of tune.

Just because fellow band members might not sing in the band it doesn't leave them void of an opinion regarding timing or pitch.

RedRabbit · September 2013

BenSirAmos said:

I'm glad you seem to have found a way to work together. A bit of seeing things from each other's point of view is a real help.

Personally, I don't take a lot of notice of criticism of my singing style from people who aren't lead singers. Everyone seems to know the lyrics, the tune, the vocal cues and everything else much better than me - until I suggest that they sing the lead vocal on that number and then they shut up and bury their noses in the chord sheet.

I find singing much much harder than playing guitar - and, as lead singer, you find that all eyes are on you almost all of the time. If the guitarist screws up - if the audience notices - everyone looks at the singer/front man to find out what is going on. If they notice a mistake by the bass player, they look at the singer / front man. Drums go out of time? - they look at the front man.

I do try and get things right - and I like to hear what other people think of what I do, I try to correct mistakes I make and I love being in bands and being part of bands - but if I thought that I was carrying all the load, taking the front man role, doing all the singing AND playing bass while you were strumming a few chords, I would tell you your job was to back up the vocals not just read the chords.

I know I can't sing well but I can tell when any instrument comes in early/late, misses a note or screws up some other way. Should they do it during a gig then we all try to compensate but in practice it's counter productive to cover up mistakes. If the singer is continually reaching the chorus two bars early the problem is with the singer not the rest of the band.

Anyone belittling my opinion because I'm "just" a guitarist would soon find themselves either looking for a new band or a new guitarist. We're all musicians and share a common language. The fact that your instrument is your voice doesn't make you any more special than the rest of the band.

digitalscream · September 2013

BenSirAmos said:
But there is a difference - not everyone thinks that they know all about guitaring if they've never played - but they think they know how to sing because they were in the choir in sunday school.

I imagine it is the same for drummers though - everyone knows how to play drums, right?

No, that's not it at all. I can't sing a single bloody note in tune, but I'm perfectly capable of discerning when our singer's fucking up, just as she - who wouldn't know which end of a guitar to hold, much less play - can tell when I'm doing it wrong. Equally, everybody in the band has come up with ideas for vocals, guitar, drums, bass...even though the only multi-instrumentalist we have is our drummer.

They don't take it personally, and neither do I...because we're on the same team.

Every band I've been in (or seen) where somebody's had the "You can't <sing/play guitar/whatever> so don't criticise the way I do it" attitude has ended up with everybody just keeping their head down and concentrating on their own bit rather than being able to work together and make it all sound good. As a result, they sounded absolutely shit.

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Am I being unreasonable (singer issues)

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