Bass tone help

stickyfiddle · September 2022

Ok, so the "work band" is going well so far and I'm getting used to paying bass with other people.

I'm trying to get everything sounding as good as possible from my end and hoping for some guidance.

This vid is a great benchmark P bass tone, and looks like a Nobel preamp into an Aguilar AG700. I do not have those (and don't really want to spend any money at this stage!) but I have an HX Stomp and a bunch of guitar pedals, and the "P with flats" bit is covered. I've been using the B15 amp model with LA Studio comp in front and a little bit of DOD Looking Glass for a little bit of rasp when I want it. EQ is pretty much flat, save for a dropoff below 50Hz

Any suggestions together nail this "fat but not wooly" thing? Different comp, more extreme EQ?

fretmeister · September 2022

The best bass sounds in history have no amp. Direct into the board with a good compressor.

So, remove the amp model completely. Use the compressor of your choice and put an EQ block in.

EQ it so it’s a bit too bright for your tastes… and then back the tone off on the bass until it’s fat enough.

If you do want a little grit, then use the Tube Preamp model first in the chain, more like an old valve desk.

Zoonyboy · September 2022

I have a few P Basses set up with various types of strings.
Live I would use a straight-sounding but powerful amp and play with a medium to soft touch. No comp unless just to limit the odd peak. I like flats for this, but also use rounds with the tone turned almost right down on the bass (until it sounds best).
Recording I use a 64 P Bass with rounds, and the tone off. I shape my sound with compression, as the tone from that bass is correct for any track, be it electro, rock or soul.
As Fretmeister says, tube preamp first and shape it with compression, no rules for this, but start with a preset. It takes ages to get where you want, and you will find it is simpler than you think.
A lot of tone is from your right hand, of course (if you are a right hander, that is). If you are looking for twang, please don't, that's where the trouble starts.

stickyfiddle · September 2022

Ta, will try that. I quickly threw a patch together with the B15 preamp then LA comp and EQ and that sounds great. WIll try the tube preamp and see which I prefer.

fretmeister · September 2022

Best bit about the Helix - there are no guitar amps or bass amps. There are just sound processing blocks.

Try them all. In the "wrong" order too.

stickyfiddle · September 2022

fretmeister said:

Best bit about the Helix - there are no guitar amps or bass amps. There are just sound processing blocks.

Try them all. In the "wrong" order too.

Haha very true though I really need to not go nuts with options!

Funkfingers · September 2022

stickyfiddle said:

Any suggestions to nail this "fat but not wooly" thing? Different comp, more extreme EQ?

Yeah. Play with yo' fingers rather than a plectrum.

Maybe, even, try the James Jamerson "claw" one finger technique. This approach limits how many notes you can sound at the same time, hopefully ensuring that you choose only the best ones.

stickyfiddle · September 2022

Funkfingers said:

stickyfiddle said:

Any suggestions to nail this "fat but not wooly" thing? Different comp, more extreme EQ?

Yeah. Play with yo' fingers rather than a plectrum.

Maybe, even, try the James Jamerson "claw" one finger technique. This approach limits how many notes you can sound at the same time, hopefully ensuring that you choose only the best ones.

Yep - I'm already committed to fingers 95% of the time unless I really need that pick sound. Helps with muting at both ends as well

LukeFRC · September 2022

On the helix I would try
B15 > high and low eq > studio comp

the high low eq let’s you use a HPF to cut off the subs, and also roll off as one of the highs.

Putting the studio comp at the end let’s you get the b15 in a sweet spot where your playing dynamics push it into mild overdrive if you dig in

axisus · September 2022

fretmeister said:

Many of The best bass sounds in history have no amp.

Fixed that for you

Reverend · September 2022

axisus said:

fretmeister said:

The best bass sounds in history used a West Fillmore head.

Fixed that for you

re fixed that

stickyfiddle · November 2022

Final-ish update on this for now. I gave up on the HX for the gig and bought an Origin Bassrig 64 Black Panel. Super easy setup, sounds great on basically every combination of settings and nails the classic P thing.

What's really amazing is I was chatting with the bassist from the best other band on the night and he was in awe of my tone, to the point that he was like "look at this video - you made it sound like this!" and it was the very same video I posted up top, so I'll take that as "Mission Accomplished"!!

fretmeister · November 2022

stickyfiddle said:

Final-ish update on this for now. I gave up on the HX for the gig and bought an Origin Bassrig 64 Black Panel. Super easy setup, sounds great on basically every combination of settings and nails the classic P thing.

What's really amazing is I was chatting with the bassist from the best other band on the night and he was in awe of my tone, to the point that he was like "look at this video - you made it sound like this!" and it was the very same video I posted up top, so I'll take that as "Mission Accomplished"!!

I really don't want to spend that type of money on a pedal!

stickyfiddle · November 2022

fretmeister said:

stickyfiddle said:

Final-ish update on this for now. I gave up on the HX for the gig and bought an Origin Bassrig 64 Black Panel. Super easy setup, sounds great on basically every combination of settings and nails the classic P thing.

What's really amazing is I was chatting with the bassist from the best other band on the night and he was in awe of my tone, to the point that he was like "look at this video - you made it sound like this!" and it was the very same video I posted up top, so I'll take that as "Mission Accomplished"!!

I really don't want to spend that type of money on a pedal!

Haha. I didn't either. But now I want the SVT one as well...!!

I can justify the first one in the name of "I will never need a bass amp", but a second is much harder!

fretmeister · November 2022

That's the thing - my jazz band doesn't use a PA at all so I have to keep my traditional rig. We only have bass and electric piano with amplification.

I haven't got that excuse.

fretmeister · November 2022

Sticky - next time you rehearse, have a go at nailing Dusty's bass tone from my other thread if you would be so kind!

If that Origin box can do it I might have to start saving some pennies!

stickyfiddle · November 2022

fretmeister said:

Sticky - next time you rehearse, have a go at nailing Dusty's bass tone from my other thread if you would be so kind!

If that Origin box can do it I might have to start saving some pennies!

Happy to. It can def get close at home volumes. Will see about recording smth

fretmeister · November 2022

You are a scholar and a gentleman!

Paul_C · November 2022

As a bass player in the past, I would say that as long as it sounds like a bass and you're not too loud or too quiet pretty much no-one cares unless you stop playing.

I was once asked by a lady at an open mic night if I was playing, when I replied I was playing bass for one of the acts she said "well at least you're joining in" . . .

stickyfiddle · November 2022

Paul_C said:

As a bass player in the past, I would say that as long as it sounds like a bass and you're not too loud or too quiet pretty much no-one cares unless you stop playing.

I was once asked by a lady at an open mic night if I was playing, when I replied I was playing bass for one of the acts she said "well at least you're joining in" . . .

I agree no-one cares directly about the nth degree of awesome bass tone. But my god do they notice when a band sounds great vs a band that doesn't.

Our gig last week was a perfect example of it - most bands were way too loud, heavy bass and either muffled or squealy guitars. We had a much more subtle mix and it's obvious from the videos of both (and comments from the crowd on the night) that we had the extra "something".

Non-musos don't understand it, but they sure as hell know when it's not there

roberty · November 2022

Yeah the mix is a cumulative effect of lots of little things

Keefy · November 2022

stickyfiddle said:

Final-ish update on this for now. I gave up on the HX for the gig and bought an Origin Bassrig 64 Black Panel. Super easy setup, sounds great on basically every combination of settings and nails the classic P thing.

What's really amazing is I was chatting with the bassist from the best other band on the night and he was in awe of my tone, to the point that he was like "look at this video - you made it sound like this!" and it was the very same video I posted up top, so I'll take that as "Mission Accomplished"!!

I have one of these, it’s brilliant. I bought it for recording bass, but also in case the day comes when I have to gig without a bass amp.

ICBM · November 2022

stickyfiddle said:

I agree no-one cares directly about the nth degree of awesome bass tone. But my god do they notice when a band sounds great vs a band that doesn't.

Our gig last week was a perfect example of it - most bands were way too loud, heavy bass and either muffled or squealy guitars. We had a much more subtle mix and it's obvious from the videos of both (and comments from the crowd on the night) that we had the extra "something".

Non-musos don't understand it, but they sure as hell know when it's not there

Quoted onto the second page for accuracy.

This, enormously. It's easy for musicians to be snobbish about how little the average audience knows about 'tone' and say that nothing matters as long as they can hear the vocals etc etc so it doesn't matter what you sound like, but they're wrong. It's true that the average person out there can't even tell the difference between a Fender and a Gibson, but they know instantly if the guitar is too loud and bright, or inaudible when someone is clearly playing something complicated. And they know perfectly well about overpowering muddy bass, or if it isn't there when it should be.

stickyfiddle · November 2022

Why thank you! I still agree with myself

flying_pie · November 2022

I don't play bass but I use a low pass filter on all my guitar gain patches - mixture of real amp/multi FX in 4cm. An EQ cut around 100Hz in the FX loop gives lots of room for the bass to stand out more. I also tend to add a high pass somewhere around 6-7KHz if there are a lot of digital effects to leave room for the overheads

It makes perfect sense that if we EQ that way in our DAWs then it would help the mix in a live setting too.

ICBM · November 2022

flying_pie said:

I don't play bass but I use a low pass filter on all my guitar gain patches - mixture of real amp/multi FX in 4cm. An EQ cut around 100Hz in the FX loop gives lots of room for the bass to stand out more. I also tend to add a high pass somewhere around 6-7KHz if there are a lot of digital effects to leave room for the overheads

It makes perfect sense that if we EQ that way in our DAWs then it would help the mix in a live setting too.

The single best thing you can do for the band mix as a guitarist is to get your amp up off the floor - that naturally rolls off the low fundamentals, so they don't conflict with the bass (the bass amp should be tight down on the floor for the equal/opposite reason, to reinforce them) and produces a better natural acoustic mix which allows both to be heard better and avoids volume wars, without needing to radically EQ anything.

It's a constant source of bafflement to me why more don't seem to know this and still put their amps down on the floor, where they sound muddy and the player can't hear them properly, so they dial them in way too loud and bright or end up disappearing when the bass starts up, which then causes a volume war.

fretmeister · November 2022

ICBM said:

flying_pie said:

I don't play bass but I use a low pass filter on all my guitar gain patches - mixture of real amp/multi FX in 4cm. An EQ cut around 100Hz in the FX loop gives lots of room for the bass to stand out more. I also tend to add a high pass somewhere around 6-7KHz if there are a lot of digital effects to leave room for the overheads

It makes perfect sense that if we EQ that way in our DAWs then it would help the mix in a live setting too.

The single best thing you can do for the band mix as a guitarist is to get your amp up off the floor - that naturally rolls off the low fundamentals, so they don't conflict with the bass (the bass amp should be tight down on the floor for the equal/opposite reason, to reinforce them) and produces a better natural acoustic mix which allows both to be heard better and avoids volume wars, without needing to radically EQ anything.

It's a constant source of bafflement to me why more don't seem to know this and still put their amps down on the floor, where they sound muddy and the player can't hear them properly, so they dial them in way too loud and bright or end up disappearing when the bass starts up, which then causes a volume war.

Not to mention bass amps getting lifted need to be much higher due to the longer waveform. So leave them on the ground. But be ready to kill everything under 30hz if the room is boomy.

I love my Micro Thumpinator for that. Genius product.

ICBM · November 2022

fretmeister said:

Not to mention bass amps getting lifted need to be much higher due to the longer waveform.

It's also surprising how little height makes a difference with a guitar cab - just a few inches can be enough. I once had a Marshall 4x12" which someone had fitted giant oversized trolley wheels to - it lifted the cab about 6" up off the floor, and that cab always sounded fantastic. (And somewhat easier to move than a normal one... but still a pig!)

stickyfiddle · November 2022

I had my TMDR at head height for our recent gig - on top of a JCM 800 half stack. Absolutely perfect!

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