School me on Atkin

Tannin · July 2022

If we are talking longevity @guitarjack66 a Taylor guitar is a better better bet than a Martin. Taylor use a much superior neck attachment method which is easier to get right in the first place, and far easier to adjust if it ever needs it. Martin have been making guitars for much much longer and have become captive to some of their own history. Taylor is a young company with fresh idea, many of them good ones.

Having said all that, Martin still make an excellent guitar and I'd be happy to own the right one when I meet it. (I have very nearly bought two or three and regret not getting a particular HD-28 while I had the chance.) I may well buy a Taylor one of these days too.

The big difference though is the house sound. Most Martin guitars have a warm, balanced sound overall but with a big, muffled bass. It is a very, very popular sound and nobody does it better than Martin. Taylors usually have a bright, chime-like sound with a zinging treble. Some people describe it as a "more modern" sound. I don't agree with that, it's just the Taylor sound. Neither one is "better" they are just different. I think they are both great sounds and I'd be happy to own one of each.

As for Atkin, you don't see them at all in my part of the world, so I've been reading the experienced comments of several posters above with interest. One of these days I'd like to buy a UK-made guitar and it will probably need to be completely sight unseen (no-one imports or sells them here in Oz) so the more I can learn the better.

artiebear · July 2022

bertie said:

Tannin said:

bertie said:

malcolmkindness said:

They tend to have very narrow necks and string spacing which doesn't suit me.

very narrow ? really ? most are 43 / 44 which is pretty much "standard"

43mm is narrow. 42mm is "very narrow". 44mm and 44.5mm are standard. I like 46mm much better but only the Europeans seem to do that other than by custom order.

wrong

Why is that wrong ? @Tannin got that pretty much spot on for most acoustic players

Tannin · July 2022

^ Woops. I misread Artiebear's comment, laughed, clicked LOL, read it properly, and realised I'd been laughing at a joke that existed only in my head. Now I can't get hold of my therapist 'coz it's Sunday, and I can't un-click the LOL!

Mellish · July 2022

@Tannin ; - you can remove the LOL by doing a refresh and clicking the LOL one more time

Tannin · July 2022

One LOL removed, one Wiz added.

slowth84 · July 2022

Wow such great input!

yes i refer to cross the pond as I browse mostly us retail and forums but it’s true I’m really based Far East.

Almost any custom shop, small builder is sight unseen.

I know how some builders in the Martin-esque sound like bourgeois, H&D etc.

i think I hope the essentials lean closer to the Martins than even these builders.

If I didn’t already have a Boucher Sg-51, I would consider om37. But I’m just zero-Ing on mahogany now.

And I’m really lusting after Martin custom
sinkers.

Mellish · July 2022

@slowth84 ; - you always *will* get a varied response mate bacause people are different.

It's true of *any* forum.

I tried the Atkin Essential D and the D37. They weren't for me but may be right for you.

If on the other hand you want a Martin, you have a dealer in Singapore: City Music

crunchman · July 2022

The Essential D is superb.

Gandalph · July 2022

@slowth84, have you had a look at or had a chance to play a Waterloo?

They do a similar thing to Atkin, only better imo.

edited...initial comment read back a little harsh I think.

slowth84 · July 2022

Mellish said:

@slowth84 ; - you always *will* get a varied response mate bacause people are different.

It's true of *any* forum.

I tried the Atkin Essential D and the D37. They weren't for me but may be right for you.

If on the other hand you want a Martin, you have a dealer in Singapore: City Music

Ha thanks for the homework!

Im familiar with city music. Our small city state however doesn’t get the real goodies the big markets receive. Standard line, a modern deluxe here and there.

Waterloo have had inflated prices the last years I believe. And none here as well.

crunchman · July 2022

slowth84 said:

Mellish said:

@slowth84 ; - you always *will* get a varied response mate bacause people are different.

It's true of *any* forum.

I tried the Atkin Essential D and the D37. They weren't for me but may be right for you.

If on the other hand you want a Martin, you have a dealer in Singapore: City Music

Ha thanks for the homework!

Im familiar with city music. Our small city state however doesn’t get the real goodies the big markets receive. Standard line, a modern deluxe here and there.

Waterloo have had inflated prices the last years I believe. And none here as well.

The Martin distributor in the UK seems to inflate the prices as well. I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked (pre-Brexit) there were Martins widely available in Germany and Holland for around £1800 that were around £2100 here.

With Brexit making it more difficult and expensive to buy from the continent, I expect they have jacked the prices even more now.

Martins being so expensive here is one reason why Atkin makes sense in the UK.

slowth84 · July 2022

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons.

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood?

Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing?

Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces.

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war.

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar.

MSedg · July 2022

I’ve not seen the Andertons video - the other guy is a bit annoying tbh- but Atkin themselves have done a series of workshop videos showing their construction techniques, which is well worth a look. Or give them a call - they are crap at email but if you call you get Alistair on the phone straight away, in my experience.

On specifics, I’ve not heard of redwood being used for braces, as far as I know it’s spruce (can’t recall whether it’s Sitka or Adi) which is torrified - definitely covered in one of the vids. I don’t have a mahogany Atkin but I’ve not heard Khaya mentioned - I know they specifically use Honduran for some of their higher-end/custom stuff (like the 25th anniversary J43) but the rest I’ve just seen referred to as mahogany.

Tannin · July 2022

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test?

(Asking for a friend.)

MSedg · July 2022

I mean, based on my playing of Atkins, no. I’ve played multiple essential dreads, OOOs, OMs, back to back with other brands. They all just sounded like mahogany to me!

MSedg · July 2022

(if, indeed, they are Khaya I mean)

slowth84 · July 2022

Tannin said:

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test?

(Asking for a friend.)

I have played some Khaya locally. They’re a denser tonewood. Maybe slightly more crisp on the high end, not as warm. That’s me.

Dave_Mc · July 2022

Tannin said:

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test?

(Asking for a friend.)

No idea, but like you I'd very much like to know. I know Khaya is usually considered to be the closest thing to genuine (Honduran, I guess also Cuban and Mexican but they're not really used) Mahogany without actually being allowed to be called "genuine mahogany". But it can be called "true mahogany" (I hate marketing).

My (very) unscientific tests of trying completely different guitars made of various different woods not even necessarily head-to-head tells me I still like acoustics made from Khaya (back and sides, I mean, I'm not sure I've tried any mahogany topped ones that weren't cheaper guitars just specced as being "mahogany" and, as such, could have been anything!), and that's not necessarily always been the case with guitars made with more distantly related woods which are still called "mahogany". But it could just have been that I didn't like the guitar as much, rather than the species of wood being the culprit. And also "still like" is not the same as "sounds the same", either...

EDIT: I haven't tried any Atkins...

Mellish · July 2022

@Tannin ; - I've tried Honduran mahogany Martins and Khaya ones.

I can't tell a difference tone-wise and, if there *is* any, I doubt it will be much

artiebear · July 2022

slowth84 said:

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons.

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood?
Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing?
Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces.

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war.

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar.

Adirondack is commonly known as Red Spruce, it doesn't grow anywhere in Europe. I have seen various European spruces, being either mistakenly or intentionally marketed as red spruce, even though a distinct species from Adirondack.

It is red spruce ( Adirondack ) that was commonly used for braces ( as well as tops ), not redwood which is very different.

slowth84 · July 2022

artiebear said:

slowth84 said:

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons.

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood?
Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing?
Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces.

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war.

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar.

Adirondack is commonly known as Red Spruce, it doesn't grow anywhere in Europe. I have seen various European spruces, being either mistakenly or intentionally marketed as red spruce, even though a distinct species from Adirondack.

It is red spruce ( Adirondack ) that was commonly used for braces ( as well as tops ), not redwood which is very different.

That’s my understanding as well. So I’m surprised he said redwood

Tannin · July 2022

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine. Native to Europe and Eurasia, from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia, as far south as Turkey. Extensively planted for timber production in New Zealand and North America. Named for its red bark, Grows on poor soil in harsh conditions, in pure forests or mixed with European Spruce or any of several deciduous trees.

(I just walk around with these details in my head.)

(Not.)

(G.I.Y.F.)

artiebear · July 2022

Tannin said:

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine. Native to Europe and Eurasia, from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia, as far south as Turkey. Extensively planted for timber production in New Zealand and North America. Named for its red bark, Grows on poor soil in harsh conditions, in pure forests or mixed with European Spruce or any of several deciduous trees.

(I just walk around with these details in my head.)

(Not.)

(G.I.Y.F.)

And that’s where it gets confusing because Redwood is a different species being a sequoia. It is used by the likes of Lowden as an alternative to spruce and cedar, being marketed as a premium upgrade, unlike Scots pine, which while being ubiquitous in Europe is hardly ever considered as an alternative for acoustic instruments,

Tannin · July 2022

It sure does! The stupid names for timbers drive me effin' spare! I can feel a long rant about it coming on, so I better leave it at that. Well, OK, I'll mention Queensland Maple (a sort of lemon, more-or-less) and Tasmanian Oak (any of three completely different Eucalyptus species and absolutely nothing to do with any oak), or English Oak (grows all over Europe) or Norwegian Spruce (ditto), or .... excuse me, I'll just go and take my blood pressure pills now.

I come to guitar timbers from a background as a bit of a field naturalist with a specialty in birds. Now say what you like about birdwatchers, but one thing we do right is names. Every single bird species in the world has a single official formal common name, and that name is unique. For example, there used to be two different "Spur-winged Plover" species, one in Europe, one in Australia. So the relevant birding organisations got their heads together and renamed the Australian one "Masked Lapwing" ("lapwing" in another word for "large plover"). And the same for hundreds of other species. The mammal people are working on a similar project, though they have a way to go yet. And the plant people .... better not to ask.

Further, common names are always capitalised. "Black Rat" indicates a particular exact species (Rattus rattus) and no other, where "black rat" indicates a rat (of any species) which happens to have a very dark colour.

This is why I always capitalise "Queensland Maple" (a particular exact species) but not "mahogany" (any of at least three different ones); capitalise "Red Spruce" (the correct formal common name of Picea rubens) but not "Adirondack spruce" (not its correct name).

Not that anyone ever notices.

Did I say I wasn't going to rant?

artiebear · July 2022

@Tannin, great post ! Being a longtime amateur ornithologist, I get what your saying.

As far as wood naming goes, it does seem to be somewhat messy. I don't mind, and totally understand the confusion caused by using common names across different species on different continents, but what does bug me is when something is marketed with a touch obfuscation in mind. It happens in the hardwood furnishings world as much as in the guitar world.

slowth84 · July 2022

Wow can of worms I see.

To try to bring it back to Atkin

whats with 2 different logo decals on the headstock?

Don’t fancy the yellow round one, and I see some with pearl script?

is the pearl and update on newer production? Cos their site still shows old logo in their gallery.

I guess the “older” script did warm up to me a lil, abit of old world charm perhaps.

MSedg · July 2022

slowth84 said:

Wow can of worms I see.

To try to bring it back to Atkin

whats with 2 different logo decals on the headstock?

Don’t fancy the yellow round one, and I see some with pearl script?

is the pearl and update on newer production? Cos their site still shows old logo in their gallery.

I guess the “older” script did warm up to me a lil, abit of old world charm perhaps.

Think I’m right in saying the pearl logo is a custom option on current models. Certainly I’ve only got it on one of mine (the OM37 custom) and have seen decals on nearly all stock in music stores. I believe they used to do it as a matter of course but no longer. FWIW the decal looks better in person in my view, it has a kind of shimmery thing going on when you turn it. Not for everyone though.

bertie · July 2022

artiebear said:

bertie said:

Tannin said:

bertie said:

malcolmkindness said:

They tend to have very narrow necks and string spacing which doesn't suit me.

very narrow ? really ? most are 43 / 44 which is pretty much "standard"

43mm is narrow. 42mm is "very narrow". 44mm and 44.5mm are standard. I like 46mm much better but only the Europeans seem to do that other than by custom order.

wrong

Why is that wrong ? @Tannin got that pretty much spot on for most acoustic players

- most modern makers 43 and 44 are the "norm" offered - 45 is considered wide and 42 ? never seen it available

MSedg · July 2022

Tannin said:

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine.

Having gone back and watched the bracing video they put out (https://youtu.be/CUtTIwcYzqI) I think this must be the answer - it’s referred to in their own vid as (baked) pine. So imagine the two names for this wood explains the confusion. I still have no answer to how using it for braces affects the tone, other than to say - I like it, whatever it is!

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