Live drums.

Placidcasual79 · May 2022

Maybe I am in the wrong place here -

My band has just imploded after ten years - something new. is emerging - but may involve me moving from guitar to drums....... I can play - drums are my first instrument - and I gigged as a. drummer from 16 till 22ish - I haven't had an acoustic set since that time - I have an electric set at home - which is great for practicing and home recording - but I am guessing wouldn't necessarily cut it live?

Would I need an acoustic kit to gig with? How much is a gig standard acoustic kit?

any help appreciated

Stratavarious · May 2022

We do around half our gigs with an eKit.. easier on the ears and a good, consistent sound, esp. with subs on the PA. Maybe start with that, if portable.

What type of music/venues?

Placidcasual79 · May 2022

Stratavarious said:

We do around half our gigs with an eKit.. easier on the ears and a good, consistent sound, esp. with subs on the PA. Maybe start with that, if portable.

What type of music/venues?

thanks @Stratavarious - the kit is a TD-9 - its for Ska and reggae (I think using an ekit would make it possible/easier to include some live dub elements/effects).....

we have a PA (tough I dont know a lot about how that works - I understand that the ekit would effectively DI?). I am guessing an ekit might sit well in the mix?

Venue's would be pubs, clubs and small festivals......

Placidcasual79 · May 2022

I hope dont mind me asking @Stratavarious - but why do you do half your gigs with an ekit? in your experience do the in house sound men (And women) you come across have experience/confidence dealing with an ekit? what short of stuff do you?

Stratavarious · May 2022

Placidcasual79 said:

I hope dont mind me asking @Stratavarious - but why do you do half your gigs with an ekit? in your experience do the in house sound men (And women) you come across have experience/confidence dealing with an ekit? what short of stuff do you?

We play small and large venues as well as festivals of all sizes. We have a digital desk with saved settings for both mic’d live kit or the edrums. Most of us have IEMs, so its all pretty easy to switch. Places with sound people usually are fine with anything or big enough to have a kit and we just bring breakables.

The mix sounds very good with eKit IMO and it is less fatiguing on ears.

Obviously monitoring for bandmates is part of the necessary thinking.

octatonic · May 2022

Electric kits fucking suck.
Get a Yamaha stage custom, some nice heads and some decent cymbals.

Bod · May 2022

I'm a drummer and it's really a balance between the convenience of an eKit, and authenticity in the sense of performance, dynamics and visual appearance. I use a Roland TD11 with mesh heads at home that triggers Superior Drummer 3 for recording and practice and while it's OK and good for songwriting etc it's just not as nice to play. Neighbours and space mean that this is my only option at home, and I'll often just not bother to practice at home because the experience is so underwhelming.

In a live scenario, having an eKit means you can better control the levels and if everybody's going direct from modellers etc it makes things a lot easier to set up a consistent mix between venues, especially with a digital mixer. It also helps to appease venues that are stupid enough to book bands and then complain about the volume levels, as you can get it much lower than an acoustic kit.

If you're happy with playing an eKit, then I'd say 99% of the punters wouldn't care. If I were to gig with one I'd definitely want to use SD3 rather than the rubbish stock sounds though, which adds another point of failure and you'd ideally have to have a dedicated laptop configured with always-on power settings, and notifications etc turned off.

Cirrus · May 2022

For my first 18 months of learning to drum I exclusively played an electronic kit. Then I did a gig and there was a real drum kit as backline. It was like sitting at an instrument I'd never played before, that's how different they are in practice.

EricTheWeary · May 2022

Having done pub gigs with a drummer with an E kit there were some real practical advantages. Set up time was couple of minutes as opposed to forever and band volume wasn't reliant on matching the drums.
The PA is a big issue. Can it cope with providing all the drum volume? Have you got adequate monitoring?
You can buy dedicated E kit amps/ monitors although from a quick look anything worth having in a band is in the £hundreds. Which alternatively could go toward an acoustic kit. Although then mics,etc...

EricTheWeary · May 2022

Cirrus said:

For my first 18 months of learning to drum I exclusively played an electronic kit. Then I did a gig and there was a real drum kit as backline. It was like sitting at an instrument I'd never played before, that's how different they are in practice.

That was one of the arguments our drummer had for using an E kit. Practice at home was on one so having to manage a different feel and dynamics at a gig wasn’t useful. I guess the comparison would be practicing at home on an electric guitar then being given an acoustic for a gig.

Musicwolf · May 2022

Placidcasual79 said:

Would I need an acoustic kit to gig with?

You don't need an acoustic kit, I think that it's about what you want.

I've worked with one drummer who moved over to an electronic kit and he loved it as it allowed him to practice at home and also use it to trigger some sounds that he couldn't get from an acoustic kit, he sounded great. As others have said, you need a PA that's up to the job.

In one of my bands the drummer wouldn't touch an electric kit and he gets uptight at any mention of electronic drums. His choice, the rest of us don't interfere (he doesn't choose which guitars we play). He can control his volume, probably better than the singer / guitarist can control his amp volume.

Placidcasual79 · June 2022

thank you @EricTheWeary and @Bod ;

I have an ekit at home and have played it for years - I am entirely comfortable playing that or an acoustic kit - I am. fortunate in that I'll get a chance to try out the ekit through our PA in practice and. can decide from there whether. to gig with it or get an accostic kit - I can see there would be a lot of advantages to an ekit (in terms of set up, consistency etc) - its just a question of how. an ekit sounds in the. mix of the band and how. it goes over with an auidence...... thank you for the advice.

(your use your ekit as a sort of midi controller with a daw then @Bod? That sounds interesting)

Bod · June 2022

Placidcasual79 said:
(your use your ekit as a sort of midi controller with a daw then @Bod? That sounds interesting)

Yeah, it works well and adds so much more realism over the stock Roland sounds - even the higher range modules I've tried.

Both Superior Drummer and EZ Drummer, which has just been updated to v3, provides tools for triggering from an eKit, including config presets for most of the popular units out there. You don't technically need a DAW as both provide standalone .exe versions. I haven't used it live, but have helped a friend configure a laptop and small audio interface for live use and he gigs it most weekends.

SD3 might be overkill for what you need, but EZ Drummer 3 looks amazing and will cover everything you need and more.

RocknRollDave · June 2022

+1 to all of those saying that the big advantage of e-drums is the turn-up-and-downability. Makes getting a good balance much easier. You’re also a bit less prone to the issues of reflection you get in big, cavernous rooms - You don’t eradicate it completely, but you now have drums firing one way (i.e. out of the PA), reducing those unpleasant reverberations significantly.

No, they don’t sound quite as good, no, they’re not as enjoyable to play….but your audience won’t care for either of those considerations.

EricTheWeary · June 2022

Bod said:

Placidcasual79 said:
(your use your ekit as a sort of midi controller with a daw then @Bod? That sounds interesting)

Yeah, it works well and adds so much more realism over the stock Roland sounds - even the higher range modules I've tried.

Both Superior Drummer and EZ Drummer, which has just been updated to v3, provides tools for triggering from an eKit, including config presets for most of the popular units out there. You don't technically need a DAW as both provide standalone .exe versions. I haven't used it live, but have helped a friend configure a laptop and small audio interface for live use and he gigs it most weekends.

SD3 might be overkill for what you need, but EZ Drummer 3 looks amazing and will cover everything you need and more.

Would that also be an easier route to add delays/reverbs for dub style effects than a nest of cables and pedals?

Bod · June 2022

EricTheWeary said:

Would that also be an easier route to add delays/reverbs for dub style effects than a nest of cables and pedals?

Totally, plus it gives you more granularity over what pieces of the kit you put the effects on, all within the plugin. I'm not sure about triggering effects within the plugin but if you use a DAW that's easily done. Using a DAW also allows you to use individual software outputs from the plugin and add any VST/AU/AAX effect to them.

Basically, if you can think it, you can usually do it somehow.

ICBM · June 2022

Nothing to add about electronic drums themselves - I'm not a drummer - but if you're going to put drums of any kind through the PA, it absolutely must have subs, and probably more power than you think you need even if the intention is to play more quietly than an acoustic kit. A 'vocal PA' with top cabs only will not cut it - the kick drum and transients will put a huge strain on both the power amp and speakers and could possibly cause damage even if you don't get distortion or limiting kicking in.

One reason a lot of people don't think electronic drums sound good is using inadequate amplification.

octatonic · June 2022

octatonic said:

Electric kits fucking suck.
Get a Yamaha stage custom, some nice heads and some decent cymbals.

To go into a bit more detail... I've been through this myself.

Electric kits fucking suck. (This point needs reiterating)
They are also terrible for your technique.
Playing on rubber hats in particular is a nightmare.
If you are already a good drummer then you can adjust but it is always a compromise.

A traditional kit is a better proposition- if you need them to be low volume then use low volume cymbals and mesh heads.
Like this:

With an e-kit you will learn how to play with tight arm positioning- you wont easily get translation from an e-kit to a regular kit.
When you eventually move to a proper kit you will have loads of muscle memory that will work against you.

The problem with the kit above is obviously that you won't be able to record anything useful from it.
You can get around that by using triggers and a drum module.

I do most of my playing on a kit of this type- it is fine.
It stays set up in the studio.
If i needed to a head swap would be about 30 mins if I needed to gig it- but I have a second kit I use for that.
When I've had (high end) e-kits they simply went unused- they are so uninspiring to play.
Never again.

blobb · June 2022

One of the things I've been meaning to do but haven't done yet (we all have those, right?) is to convert my acoustic kit to an e-kit. Mesh heads + triggers.

Teetonetal · June 2022

I have no issues swapping between real kits and Ekits - I have always practiced on EKits at home and used real ones in practice rooms or bands.

However,

I am not a great drummer - firmly average - so I'm not doing anything fancy.
Ensuring you have the right PA and monitoring for an EKit is a must if you do it within the band, otherwise, it will sound shit.
If you get a real kit - learn how to tune it properly, if you don't already know.
Unless high end kits have improved a lot, doing any kind of nice dynamic cymbal work on an ekit is a tricky

EricTheWeary · June 2022

The very heavy Jamaican accent may make this difficult to follow…

https://youtu.be/pBhTpxvA3IE

…just following on from some of the things Bod was saying. This is adding a greater level of complexity than just plugging an E kit into a socket on a PA mixer but you can start to see the possibilities.

Right, how do I explain to MrsTheWeary that I want to take up the drums now…

Funkfingers · June 2022

octatonic said:
Electric kits fucking suck. (This point needs reiterating)
They are also terrible for your technique.

I am not a drummer but I understand what octatonic is saying.

The physicality of beating on flexible heads is yet to be matched by electronic kits … including the expensive mesh headed ones.

Placidcasual79 said:
the kit is a TD-9 ... we have a PA

Years ago, a drummer with whom I worked briefly, had a double Roland electronic kit and a monstorous Mackie self-powered P.A. devoted to amplifying it.

Once, whilst troubleshooting, I was asked to look over the back of a cab to see whether an LED was lighting up. It was. The force of air from the loudspeakers was very similar to standing in front of an acoustic kick drum.

It makes economic sense to begin with the gear that you already own but, for proper impact, the band P.A. has to kick ass.

Placidcasual79 · June 2022

Bod said:

EricTheWeary said:
Would that also be an easier route to add delays/reverbs for dub style effects than a nest of cables and pedals?

Totally, plus it gives you more granularity over what pieces of the kit you put the effects on, all within the plugin. I'm not sure about triggering effects within the plugin but if you use a DAW that's easily done. Using a DAW also allows you to use individual software outputs from the plugin and add any VST/AU/AAX effect to them.

Basically, if you can think it, you can usually do it somehow.

Yes!!!!! @EricTheWeary - you KNOW thats where this is headed.....

Placidcasual79 · June 2022

@octatonic I am not a great drummer - but Ive been playing 20 years so my technique is probably firmly established for better or worse - I've played acoustic kits for 10 years - got an ekit 10 years ago due to kids, home recording and becoming a guitar player as opposed to a drummer in band - I dont have an issue moving between. e and acoustic kits - but I think the take homes here are the PA is going to be really important - thats our bass players department so will consort with him - set up and levels are going to be quicker and easier and it will be exciting to have the additional versatility sounds available plus the prospect of using effects to dub it up

crunchman · June 2022

ICBM said:

Nothing to add about electronic drums themselves - I'm not a drummer - but if you're going to put drums of any kind through the PA, it absolutely must have subs, and probably more power than you think you need even if the intention is to play more quietly than an acoustic kit. A 'vocal PA' with top cabs only will not cut it - the kick drum and transients will put a huge strain on both the power amp and speakers and could possibly cause damage even if you don't get distortion or limiting kicking in.

One reason a lot of people don't think electronic drums sound good is using inadequate amplification.

Very true.

Another thing to consider is monitoring. You need something that can handle the kick drum without blowing up, unless you go for in ears. I've seen a 1000W powered cab with a 12" speaker die after a few weeks of being used as a E drum monitor. That may be coincidence, but in line with what ICBM said, the kick drum will put a lot of stress on it, and it probably wasn't coincidence.

There are purpose designed electric drum monitors, but they aren't cheap.

octatonic · June 2022

Funkfingers said:

octatonic said:
Electric kits fucking suck. (This point needs reiterating)
They are also terrible for your technique.

I am not a drummer but I understand what octatonic is saying.

The physicality of beating on flexible heads is yet to be matched by electronic kits … including the expensive mesh headed ones.

Things like doubles and paradiddles, when learned for the first time on rubber pads and mesh heads, become difficult to translate when you do get to play an acoustic kit.
This presupposes that on an acoustic kit 'it the right way to play', which if you are mostly going to be an e-kit player might not be true.

Plus, imho they are just not fun- there isn't the same subtlety on an e-kit- ghosts notes, hihat/cymbal to drum balance are completely unsubtle.

sgosden · June 2022

will you be sharing backline?
nothing throws off stage times like setting up and pulling down two kits in between bands.

trolley · June 2022

My son has a Pearl Export kit which needs to go. PM me if you want more details

Placidcasual79 · June 2022

sgosden said:

will you be sharing backline?
nothing throws off stage times like setting up and pulling down two kits in between bands.

thats a good point @sgosden I hadn't considered - setting up the e-kit takes minimal time - I can fold it into the back of the car, take it out, unfold it and. have it plugged in very quickly. I think the levels can be saved on the PA - then maybe slightly adjusted for the room.....

Still leaves the issue of dealing with an acoustic kit on either side..... and I'd be entirely happy to use an acoustic kit if there is one there.....

Timmy · June 2022

£300 on eBay for a secondhand kit if you are lucky. Mapex make good cheap drums but you can't go wrong with a pearl export.

DrumBob · July 2022

Musicwolf said:

Placidcasual79 said:

Would I need an acoustic kit to gig with?

You don't need an acoustic kit, I think that it's about what you want.

In one of my bands the drummer wouldn't touch an electric kit and he gets uptight at any mention of electronic drums. His choice, the rest of us don't interfere (he doesn't choose which guitars we play). He can control his volume, probably better than the singer / guitarist can control his amp volume.

This. A good drummer knows what dynamics are. Electronic drums never have been, and never will be my choice for anything, although they have their place in certain situations. I can see if you want to make demos or practice at home, and volume is an issue, then e-drums are the right choice, but for live work, I'll quote carmine Appice, who said, "I like real drums, with real skins, that I can dig into and kick ass!"

That sums it up for me as well.

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