Why do acoustic guitars sound so bad live?

Honkycat · May 2022

James Taylor’s live guitar sound is fantastic. Not sure what gear he uses with the Olsens though.

crunchman · May 2022

Tannin said:

crunchman said:

I don't know what they sound like plugged in, but if you are buying purely for the plugged in sound (because I wouldn't buy for the unplugged sound) then these days you are better off getting a Fender Acoustasonic.

Oh no, no, no. What an appallingly horrible thing they are. I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me. Seriously, I'd just sell it. If I wasn't allowed to sell it, then I'd chuck it in the shed and let the mice nest in it.

Don't get me wrong - I don't hate Fender, not by any means. I like Strats, I love Teles, and my 59 Fender bass was by far the best bass guitar I've ever played in my life. But those Acoustasonic things ... just no.

Have you tried one?

My wife bought me one as a present. For plugged in use, it's probably the best "acoustic" I have owned.

Lewy · May 2022

ICBM said:

I think a big problem is that now, a lot of sound engineers think that the 'classic' Takamine-type electro-acoustic sound is what an acoustic guitar is *meant* to sound like, so even when presented with something which inherently sounds better, they try to EQ it so it has that same thin, hollow tone with way too much string attack, top-end and body boom.

There was a while I was using the LR Baggs Lyric internal mic and this sort of things was ultimately the reason I had to abandon it - so many of the gigs I was doing were quick line checks and then on, and sound engineers just couldn't seem to get theirs heads around the concept of listening to what sound the guitar was making and adjusting accordingly rather than defaulting to their standard approach for dialing in UST equipped acoustics. The Lyric has great potential, none of which could be realised in the practical scenarios because the average jobbing London sound engineer generally can't be assumed to be giving a shit about the sound!

bertie · May 2022

there's a wold of difference between "good" and "acceptable"

for me anyways

Lestratcaster · May 2022

Cos they always have crap pieze/magnetic pickup systems built in which never capture the best sound of an acoustic guitar which is either mic'd up with a nice condenser mic (not really practical on a stage) or unplugged sitting in front of it. The closest sounding natural sound I've heard so far are either the LR Baggs Anthem or the Schertler AG6 as both use a mic you plug in get that moving air sound.

crunchman · May 2022

Lestratcaster said:

Cos they always have crap pieze/magnetic pickup systems built in which never capture the best sound of an acoustic guitar which is either mic'd up with a nice condenser mic (not really practical on a stage) or unplugged sitting in front of it. The closest sounding natural sound I've heard so far are either the LR Baggs Anthem or the Schertler AG6 as both use a mic you plug in get that moving air sound.

All the best systems I've come across that don't use digital trickery have been blend systems with a mic.

These days the digital trickery has completely changed things though. A simple undersaddle piezo with digital trickery (preferably outboard) is the way I would go if I was getting something new.

shufflebeat · May 2022

Context is also important. Many sound techs are setting up a percussive, top-heavy sound because the instrument has to fulfil a specific role as part of an overall sound where the bass is already providing the warmth and meat. In this case it's tempting to set the acoustic as tuned percussive rather than melody.

I play a lot with fiddle, accordion and flute players where my role is both percussive and chordal. Anything that doesn't come across as organic will sound out of place and my current setup of Tak341 and Tonedexter is as good as I've heard anywhere in that respect.

Teacherphil · May 2022

The best one I've ever heard was some guy with a Yamaha LL6 at that musiclounge place in Stockton a few years back. Well done if that was you.

JayGee · May 2022

crunchman said:

Tannin said:

crunchman said:

I don't know what they sound like plugged in, but if you are buying purely for the plugged in sound (because I wouldn't buy for the unplugged sound) then these days you are better off getting a Fender Acoustasonic.

Oh no, no, no. What an appallingly horrible thing they are. I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me. Seriously, I'd just sell it. If I wasn't allowed to sell it, then I'd chuck it in the shed and let the mice nest in it.

Don't get me wrong - I don't hate Fender, not by any means. I like Strats, I love Teles, and my 59 Fender bass was by far the best bass guitar I've ever played in my life. But those Acoustasonic things ... just no.

Have you tried one?

My wife bought me one as a present. For plugged in use, it's probably the best "acoustic" I have owned.

I tried one when I got my Taylor. It was brilliant, exactly the guitar I needed for the job I bought the Taylor for (with the added bonus of being able to flip to a clean or lightly driven electric sound which would be perfect for adding a little contrast to some of my current band’s songs). But I didn’t want it enough to justify the cost. I’d like one as well (and could totally see it happening one day) as a tool but I couldn’t summon any enthusiasm for it as my one and only “acoustic”…

Stuckfast · May 2022

We should also bear in mind that the idea of a "natural" amplified acoustic guitar sound is a bit of an oxymoron. Even if you were able to perfectly capture the acoustic sound of the instrument and simply make it louder, psychoacoustics would mean that the tone would appear to change.

Mellish · May 2022

In most cases the problem is with the soundman, not the guitar

impmann · May 2022

It also depends on what you are playing your acoustic guitar along to... if you are playing in a full band setting (ie drums and bass etc) then the full range of the acoustic will quarrel quite a lot with the frequency response of the other instruments. The d*ckhead way to compensate is to boost the volume which inevitably leads to feedback, on stage volume wars and general all round bad stuff... there is a reason acoustics get eq'd to hell on record to get them to sit into a mix, the same is true live. That may mean that the solo sound will be not as pleasing to the ear, as the mix sound... Much like an electric guitar needs to have eq to project (or sit back in a mix), so does an acoustic. Most players don't understand (or care) about such things, and think its all the soundman's job... well sometimes you can only roll that turd in glitter and thats when you end up with those god-awful spiky piezo sounds. At least that player can hear and be heard...

Most guys who use an acoustic live just plug their electro that they paid half as much for as their electric direct into the desk and expect the little on-board preamp to "sort it all out". They then fiddle with the (usually poor) on board graphic eq - and instead of approaching it carefully, just boost stuff until it sounds "nice" and wonder why it howls its tits off whilst hissing like a bastard. The same guys will obsess about signal path, buffers, boutique fuzzes, all valve amps and even the maple pieces inside their PAF clones for their electrics... and believe they can control it all from the guitar because they can hear it sounds 'epic' from three feet away from their blazing amp...

IME, the problem is not the soundman... its the guitarist who doesn't understand why their tone is crap, and who belligerently believes they are right despite all evidence to the contrary.

ElectricXII · May 2022

This thread has been really interesting, as I'm going to be using an acoustic live with my band soon. Up until now it's been electric only, but we're doing some songs which are better suited to an acoustic guitar. I should probably buy a DI box for rehearsals and gigs where we don't have a sound man to provide one.

Can anyone recommend a decent, simple, relatively inexpensive DI box? I'm playing a J-35 with an LR Baggs Element.

crunchman · May 2022

ElectricXII said:

This thread has been really interesting, as I'm going to be using an acoustic live with my band soon. Up until now it's been electric only, but we're doing some songs which are better suited to an acoustic guitar. I should probably buy a DI box for rehearsals and gigs where we don't have a sound man to provide one.

Can anyone recommend a decent, simple, relatively inexpensive DI box? I'm playing a J-35 with an LR Baggs Element.

Orchid are good. Small company down in Devon.

Last time I looked, their website was a bit archaic and cumbersome, but their DI boxes are good and very well priced.

ElectricXII · May 2022

crunchman said:

Orchid are good. Small company down in Devon.

Last time I looked, their website was a bit archaic and cumbersome, but their DI boxes are good and very well priced.

Thanks! I hadn't heard of Orchid, and their Micro DI Box looks ideal.

ICBM · May 2022

impmann said:

It also depends on what you are playing your acoustic guitar along to... if you are playing in a full band setting (ie drums and bass etc) then the full range of the acoustic will quarrel quite a lot with the frequency response of the other instruments. The d*ckhead way to compensate is to boost the volume which inevitably leads to feedback, on stage volume wars and general all round bad stuff... there is a reason acoustics get eq'd to hell on record to get them to sit into a mix, the same is true live. That may mean that the solo sound will be not as pleasing to the ear, as the mix sound... Much like an electric guitar needs to have eq to project (or sit back in a mix), so does an acoustic. Most players don't understand (or care) about such things, and think its all the soundman's job... well sometimes you can only roll that turd in glitter and thats when you end up with those god-awful spiky piezo sounds. At least that player can hear and be heard...

Most guys who use an acoustic live just plug their electro that they paid half as much for as their electric direct into the desk and expect the little on-board preamp to "sort it all out". They then fiddle with the (usually poor) on board graphic eq - and instead of approaching it carefully, just boost stuff until it sounds "nice" and wonder why it howls its tits off whilst hissing like a bastard. The same guys will obsess about signal path, buffers, boutique fuzzes, all valve amps and even the maple pieces inside their PAF clones for their electrics... and believe they can control it all from the guitar because they can hear it sounds 'epic' from three feet away from their blazing amp...

IME, the problem is not the soundman... its the guitarist who doesn't understand why their tone is crap, and who belligerently believes they are right despite all evidence to the contrary.

So much of this is true. Soundmen usually *hate* electro-acoustics, if they have 'comprehensive' preamps - since they can comprehensively fuck up the sound beyond the point of being fixable at the desk - and even worse, the player has onstage control over it so can "adjust" it to "compensate" for what the soundman has done to try to salvage something usable. The best electro-acoustics have no onboard controls...

(And that's despite what I said earlier about soundmen EQ'ing guitars so they sound like Takamines, which is a different problem.)

crunchman · May 2022

If you have a full band mix that's so busy it requires eq'ing the acoustic to death, you probably don't need the acoustic in the mix in the first place.

Nikc · June 2022

At open Mics I tend to run my guitar eq flat and hope someone out front uses their ears - if not then hopefully my singing is enough of a distraction. On my own I start with acoustic amp and get a tone I like then out to the PA - would now always use my amp and then send the signal of in preference. Just like an electric guitar the amp is part of the overall instrument imo of course

shufflebeat · June 2022

ICBM said:

The best electro-acoustics have no onboard controls...

(And that's despite what I said earlier about soundmen EQ'ing guitars so they sound like Takamines, which is a different problem.)

Oh, I don't know. My Tak ef341/Tonedexter sounds pretty good compared to most other low/high end guitars I've tried over the years. A good outcome (reliable in a variety of environments) depends so much on having all elements of the system working in harmony and that takes time and experimentation.

Smellyfingers · June 2022

Take a look at this for how it can sound. But admittedly this is from someone who has dedicated his career to acoustic instrumentals. I suspect it may take more skill to 'fill a room' with an acoustic than an electric.

borntohang · July 2022

We (as in the band I tech with) have got one of the Acoustasonic things out on tour with us. When it turned up we all went ehhh but it's been an absolute godsend for a hassle-free modern acoustic tone through FoH and with it being a bolt on it's quite nice to work on. Developed a weird buzz after a couple of shows but I just went through the back panel and tightened up the pickup fittings. I gather the singer really likes it for studio when he's in the middle of a brainstorm and wants to quickly flick between acoustic and electric sounds, which seems to be what they intended it for. I wouldn't use it as an 'acoustic' though.

Weirdly enough one the best live acoustic tones I've ever heard was Justin Derrico playing with Pink on the 2019 tour and it was coming from a Les Paul - not even in the mix but just him and her up there playing solo. It was so good that I collared him and his tech afterwards to find out what was doing it but he claimed it was just a piezo/Fishman Aura combo with some really good IRs. The tech seemed slightly more cagey about it so perhaps there was some crazy NASA tech hiding back there in the racks that he didn't want to spill... Still suffers from Tayloritis and seems a bit buzzier on this than I remember; maybe the big room softened it out:

JD is a monster player really so I'm not surprised he made it work. Probably sound like a bag of bees if I tried!

ian · July 2022

Borntohang, your post reminds me that, in their set at Glastonbury recently, Gaz Colombes of Supergrass got an acoustic sound from an electric that was way, way better than a typical piezo; I'm curious to know what the gear was.

borntohang · July 2022

ian said:

Borntohang, your post reminds me that, in their set at Glastonbury recently, Gaz Colombes of Supergrass got an acoustic sound from an electric that was way, way better than a typical piezo; I'm curious to know what the gear was.

We're actually doing a bit of backline work with Mick this summer so if I get chance I'll make delicate enquiries...

DartmoorHedgehog · July 2022

ICBM said:

Soundmen usually *hate* electro-acoustics, if they have 'comprehensive' preamps - since they can comprehensively fuck up the sound beyond the point of being fixable at the desk - and even worse, the player has onstage control over it so can "adjust" it to "compensate" for what the soundman has done to try to salvage something usable. The best electro-acoustics have no onboard controls...

I put a simple DIY pickup in my acoustic when my daughter started doing open mics a few months ago. It's just a single transducer glued to the back of the bridge plate, wired to an end-pin jack socket. Into my Focusrite interface it has mic-level signal and needs loads of EQ otherwise it sounds overly bright, but I've made some really good recordings with it that way. For the open mics I've been taking a little Fishman external preamp to boost the signal to more like normal instrument level (which I assumed a sound tech would be expecting from a "proper" electro-acoustic) and preset the EQ to something less harsh than the raw signal from the transducer. It works well enough, but we've had a few complaints about it being too hot - is the output from a normal electro-acoustic supposed to be nearer mic-level after all?

(If you've seen my other thread you'll know she hopefully won't be having to use my lash-up for much longer

)

ICBM · July 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

For the open mics I've been taking a little Fishman external preamp to boost the signal to more like normal instrument level (which I assumed a sound tech would be expecting from a "proper" electro-acoustic) and preset the EQ to something less harsh than the raw signal from the transducer. It works well enough, but we've had a few complaints about it being too hot - is the output from a normal electro-acoustic supposed to be nearer mic-level after all?

Instrument level. You should be able to turn it down... or if it's going into a DI box, that's what the pad switch is for.

artiebear · July 2022

.ian said:

Borntohang, your post reminds me that, in their set at Glastonbury recently, Gaz Colombes of Supergrass got an acoustic sound from an electric that was way, way better than a typical piezo; I'm curious to know what the gear was.

The soundman and your expectation. It was an approximation of an acoustic guitar, I heard it it, I didn't like it, but it did the job in a festival electric set. A bit removed from trying to make a harmonically rich acoustic guitar sound great under difficult conditions

LastMantra · July 2022

The concept of using an acoustic guitar to produce a completely electronic sound always seemed strange to me. It's never going to sound the same.

In a small room where you can still hear the actual guitar but it's being amplified to two or three times louder can sound really good, especially if the player is sitting with decent mics rather than moving around a stage.

It's all a bit of a compromise in the name of volume really.

stickyfiddle · July 2022

@ian Coombes definitely used a Boss AC-3 (or AC-2) back in the day, so that would be my first guess. They don't sound great in isolation but as you say in a mix and with a good soundman they do ok.

Grangousier · July 2022

Or if he's using a Helix or something similar you can make a patch based around an IR, compressor and EQ that does the job.

BigPaulie · July 2022

Paolo's Takamine electro sounded rather good at TRNSMT last night.

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Why do acoustic guitars sound so bad live?

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