I may be about to do something silly

Tannin · April 2022

Of all my guitars, the one that I'm not really getting on with is the Cole Clark 12-string in Bunya and Blackwood. Some time ago I realised that I don't much care for fingerstyle 12-string music - I respect it, but it's just not something I want to play - and strung the 12 up as a 6.

I like the extra space that 50mm nut gives me on the fretboard and I really like the extra string spacing at the bridge. I play cleaner on the 12, with fewer mistakes. But it's a bit too wide for these ageing hands - I've played classicals and then 12s for 50 years and I hate skinny necks but I'm finding 50mm just a bit much. And I dislike the neck profile. I am usually very unfussy about neck profiles, I barely even notice them let alone care, but this one is quite square and I've never really got used to it.,

Most of all, it has a distinctive bright, nasal sort of sound, which is fun for a little while but gets wearing. I think in its design role as a 12-string that chimey, nasal voice floating over a mix would work really well. But for me, a solo player on 6 strings, it's not cutting the mustard.

I'm away from home at present and, as is my habit, when I go away, I have just one guitar with me. Last time I took the Doctor - a cedar and Queensland Maple Maton dreadnought. I liked it when I left and after a month of playing nothing else, and absolutely loved it by the time I got back. I reckon the concentrated playing woke up the timbers. People say cedar doesn't open up like spruce. Nonsense.

This time I've brought the 12-string with me. And I'm thinking that I'm not going to take it home. It's only a year old, just over, so It's worth a bit if I trade it in - close to $2000 I reckon (say £1100) . I really like the Blackwood sound and I've got my eye on a Maton Artist (spruce and Blackwood, about $2900) ... or (and here we get to the silly bit) a Maton Custom Shop WA May, also in spruce and Blackwood and about $6500. Also a Custom Shop Tommy Emmanuel Personal (i.e., the exact same guitar Tommy plays) in spruce and Queensland Maple for the same price.

In theory I like the idea of having a variety of guitars from different makers, and I do have 5 different brands in my little set of 7, but I already have two Matons (not counting the leftie) and here I am looking at a third. But I love the way they sound and I love the way they play.

I've only ever played one Maton Custom Shop instrument, a Flatpicker, but it was one of the two best guitars I've ever played. (The other was a Guild, and even more expensive.) I have no reason to think that any of the others are inferior.

Anyway, I'm thinking about the WA May and I might just do something about it this week or next while I'm over here withing reach of a good Custom Shop dealer.

https://www.acousticcentre.com.au/products/maton-wa-may-custom-shop-guitar?_pos=1&_psq=wa may&_ss=e&_v=1.0

bertie · April 2022

a) getting rid of a 12 string is not silly
b) getting rid of a CC is not silly

so thats a win/win

Nice Maton, shame about the horrid pre-amp controls

TheMadMick · April 2022

Tanin

The problem is that there is no right answer, just the one that suits you now. That then brings up the other problem that it may not be the answer that suits in the future. But that's how it is. Get used to it.

Good luck. Remember, we come this way but once.

That Maton is a LUVLY looking piece of the luthiers art. Me, I'd go for it if it tickled my fancy and she indoors could be persuaded to accept yet another guitar.

Mellish · April 2022

@Tannin ; you know enough about acoustics to make a wise-choice decision that's right for you. Just trust yourself

drofluf · April 2022

That Maton is a beauty; if it you like the sound and it won’t mean the family going starving go for it!

I love buying guitars by proxy

Tannin · April 2022

Cheers lads.

Bertie, I have another Cole Clark which is, all things considered, the best guitar I own, and one of the best I have played. But yes, I don't care for many of them. They are a mixed bag.

I'd just as soon not have the electronics, I never use them. The silly thing is that, a couple of the very cheapest models aside, all factory Matons have the electronics as standard. However the hand-made ones from the Custom Shop don't. You specify whether you want a pick-up just as you specify everything else. Pre-built custom shop guitars are usually made with no electronics and when you buy one, if necessary, the shop sends it back to Maton to have the pickup fitted. For this one the dealer must have asked to have it.

However the reality is that if I ordered a WA May to my specifications (which isn't out of the question) it would take months and cost quite a lot more, maybe an extra couple of thousand.

@TheMadMick - I should be OK on this one. One out, one in. (Fingers crossed.)

@all - I'll play a variety of other things, but I suspect that I'll want the one I linked to. I'll get down there next week maybe.

bertie · April 2022

Tannin said:

Cheers lads.

Bertie, I have another Cole Clark which is, all things considered, the best guitar I own, and one of the best I have played

you are dead to me ..............................................................

Soupman · April 2022

Wow, that looks a stonking piece of kit.

Tannin · April 2022

Well that was an interesting day. I drove over to a camera dealer and sold some lenses I don't need any more. The place is way over in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne (i.e., the far side), so I drove over 300 kilometres today, most of it through city traffic. But the camera people were a pleasure to deal with and I walked out with cash in my pocket.

On the The Acoustic Centre, the biggest acoustic guitar shop in Melbourne (the biggest city in Australia). There I negotiated the sale of my 12-string (on a consignment basis) and moved on to the good bit: selecting a worthy replacement.

I started by asking for a "plain vanilla" baseline guitar to attune my ears to. (Normally I'd take one of my own in, usually whichever one is most similar to the one I'm interested in buying, but that wasn't possible this time.) For that we used a Maton Nashville, not a model I've played before but sonically fairly similar to the Maton Artist which I know and like.

The Nashville is a nice, middle-of-the-road midrange model, Sitka Spruce over Blackwood in an 808 body. (Maton's 808 body shape is unique: it's essentially a typical concert guitar (Martin 00, etc.) with a deeper body like a dreadnought.) I enjoyed it but found it a bit twangy. I guess that's why they call it the "Nashville". It's a good sound, but it wouldn't suit me. For starters, I'd have to buy different boots and a new hat.

Tannin · April 2022

Then I moved on to the three Maton Custom Shop guitars they had in stock. A handful of the best shops sometimes have a Maton CS model on the rack, The Acoustic Centre had three. These are all hand-made, top-shelf instruments, and I'll say right away that if they'd only had one of the three (any one) I would have played it, played three or four other things just to show willing, and then bought it on the spot, thrilled to bits.

I actually considered buying all of them for a moment but decided that on balance I'd rather stay married. There will be enough trouble over just one.

Let's start with this one, which was slightly cheaper than the other two. https://www.acousticcentre.com.au/collections/6-string-acoustic/products/maton-custom-shop-myrtle-lutz-custom-808c-w-case

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/lutz_myrtle_front.jpg

Another 808, this one has a Lutz Spruce top and a spectacularly beautiful Tiger Myrtle back, which the pictures don't do justice to: in the flesh it is quite extraordinary. I really don't like the orange stain on the top, but what are looks anyway? Apparently, Andy Allen built just two of these, one for himself, and one to sell. (Officially Andy is the head of the Maton custom shop. In practice, he is the custom shop; I'm sure he must delegate some tasks (e.g., I daresay he lets the paint shop people do the spraying) but he builds then all.)

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/lutz_myrtle.jpg

I was sort of hoping to dislike it because of the orange top (hey Andy is covered in tattoos, he probably likes it!) but it was immediately attractive. Lovely and soft in the hands, very clear but still smooth, and with that distinctive Myrtle Beech (Nothofagus) ring to it. It also neatly picked the gap between the strengths of the other two (more on these shortly). Weird orange top or not, I could very happily take this beauty home.

Tannin · April 2022

On to the WA May. Here is Andy Allen - a man more at home with a chisel than a microphone - talking about it:

The WA May is a Traditional body style. Note that capital "T" - "Traditional" is Maton's name for their new body style, which is like an enlarged 808, or to look at it the other way around, like a 000 with the depth of a dreadnought. It looks very similar to an 808 but its just that little bit bigger, which makes it louder and gives it even more bass voice.

Sitka Spruce and Blackwood is a well-tried combination, it probably accounts for 50% of all the guitars Maton make. Having sold the 12, I didn't have a Blackwood guitar, and it's a sound one should certainly have in any collection. This is a bold guitar, beautifully crisp and balanced, but loud and with a bright attack. (The dreadnought you have when you are not having a dreadnought?) The chap in the shop described it as being "rather like a Martin", which is spot on: it's got a lot of that Martin flavour while still being clearly one of the Maton family.

It was also the most challenging of the three to play: it is loud and responsive and shows up flaws in your playing mercilessly. On the other hand, if you get everything right, it has perhaps the best sound of the three. And as for looks - well, each to his own, but I thought it was just a ripper. It's a fantastic bit of fiddleback Blackwood, and the old-style WA May headstock just does it for me.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/220422_165728_5DSRc.jpg

Tannin · April 2022

Finally, the least visually impressive of the three, the TE Personal. Now there are several Tommy Emmanuel Matons and it is easy to mix them up. The most common two are the EGB808 and the EBG808C. These are production guitars in the same 808 body style Tommy plays, in the same Sitka Spruce and Queensland Maple. They fit nicely into the middle of Maton's range and are deservedly very popular. I very nearly bought one a couple of times but in both cases ended up going for something much more expensive. The less common and confusingly named TE1 is similar but in a dreadnought style and seems to have been discontinued. Finally, there is the guitar Tommy actually plays, the TE Personal. This is the same as an EBG808 except that it has a mahogany neck (instead of Queensland Maple) and it's hand-made by Andy in the custom shop. Here is a young chap demoing one.

I don't especially care for the look of the TE Personal. It is very plain and understated and I've never much cared for the walnut headstock veneer, or the kitsch kangaroo emblem. But in the hand, it is a dream to play. It doesn't have an in-your-face character like the WA May or an HD-28 or a J-45, it is understated. It doesn't have a spectacular look-at-me sound like a 000-18 or a Messiah or high-end Taylor, it puts you in the spotlight, it becomes whatever you want it to be.

Simply, this is the most playable guitar I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. I could take it home and be happy as Larry.

Three wonderful guitars, and after quite some time playing them one after another, I couldn't decide. I went out and had lunch, walked the streets of South Melbourne for half and hour while I thought it over.

Mellish · April 2022

Looks-wise the 808 with orange top for me. But that's some headstock in the last pic!

Tannin · April 2022

By the time I got back I had worked out the right questions.

* Was the spectacular WA May controllable? Or was it more guitar than I can play? (At least play well.)
* Did the TE Personal have enough oomph to satisfy? Could I cope with the lack of bling. (Hey - I'm not obsessed with bling, but at these prices I'd like some.)
* Was the orange 808 the best in-between compromise?

The answers were "yes", "yes", and "yes", which didn't help.

In the end, I bought the WA May and we all lived happily ever after.

guitarjack66 · April 2022

Tannin said:

On to the WA May. Here is Andy Allen - a man more at home with a chisel than a microphone - talking about it:

The WA May is a Traditional body style. Note that capital "T" - "Traditional" is Maton's name for their new body style, which is like an enlarged 808, or to look at it the other way around, like a 000 with the depth of a dreadnought. It looks very similar to an 808 but its just that little bit bigger, which makes it louder and gives it even more bass voice.

Sitka Spruce and Blackwood is a well-tried combination, it probably accounts for 50% of all the guitars Maton make. Having sold the 12, I didn't have a Blackwood guitar, and it's a sound one should certainly have in any collection. This is a bold guitar, beautifully crisp and balanced, but loud and with a bright attack. (The dreadnought you have when you are not having a dreadnought?) The chap in the shop described it as being "rather like a Martin", which is spot on: it's got a lot of that Martin flavour while still being clearly one of the Maton family.

It was also the most challenging of the three to play: it is loud and responsive and shows up flaws in your playing mercilessly. On the other hand, if you get everything right, it has perhaps the best sound of the three. And as for looks - well, each to his own, but I thought it was just a ripper. It's a fantastic bit of fiddleback Blackwood, and the old-style WA May headstock just does it for me.

Do Maton do all headstocks like this? This looks ugly as sin to me. Unless the guitar played perfectly I'd probably avoid it.

Tannin · April 2022

Do they all look like that? Good lord no! There wouldn't be enough fiddleback Blackwood (which is fairly rare) - let alone that extraordinary flamed Satin Box - to do more than a bare handful. I'm very lucky to have one.

Rare timbers aside, this is the art deco headstock shape Bill May used for the very earliest Maton guitars back in the 1940s. They went to simpler, less ornate, production headstocks not so long after that. These days nearly all Matons use either the plain standard Maton headstock (I'll take some pictures when I get home, my dreadnought has the standard head) or, for higher end models, the classic Maton "keyhole" headstock. (My Messiah is an example, I'll post a picture of that one too.)

Tannin · May 2022

OK, as promised, a picture.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/220505_115815_1D4c.jpg

From left to right:

* The Maton "keyhole" headstock, used on most of the higher-end production models. This is a Messiah, it also appears on the Artist, the Nashville, the MicFix, and the Australians. The headstock veener timber varies, this one is ebony.

* The standard Maton headstock, used on all the cheaper models (SRS series, Mini Matons) and some mid-range models (Tommy Emmanuel series, ER90). Again, you see it in a variety of headstock veneer timbers, most often (for some crazy reason) Sapele - which strikes me as a particularly ugly timber when used in this way. Someone at Maton must have liked it because they do that quite often, even though Sapele is not a timber Maton uses for backs and sides or anything else. The standard headstock can be quite pleasant when they use a nicer-looking timber for it.

* At top right, the WA May headstock (as described in the previous post) used on some of the hand-made Custom Shop instruments, though generally not with that combination of timbers.

ToneControl · May 2022

A 50mm nut would be a lot for a steel-string

I've always played a bit of classical stuff, and also like to have a bit more space
I like the 1 7/8 inch nut on my Larrivee slope-shoulder dread

Tannin · May 2022

50mm is standard on 12-strings, ToneControl, although 48mm is also common.

Mellish · May 2022

I was looking more at how you anchor strings at the tuning posts - the geek in me

I do it differently. For the E A and D, through, pull back a little slack, bend excess clockwise around post, under and pull up so the excess is trapped against the post as you wind.

For the G B and E, the bend round each post is anti-clockwise, obviously.

Apologies for going off track

JezWynd · May 2022

Beautiful guitar, I'm sure you made the right choice. Looking at the pic of the fretboard in the store link you provided, the Indian Rosewood seems to have practically no grain at all; is that down to careful selection of the wood or is it treated to achieve that smooth finish?

Tannin · May 2022

Ahh, but that's not me @Mellish.

Assuming you are looking at the WA May, that's the chap at Maton who puts the strings on. Those are still the factory Elixir Nanoweb 12s on it. I haven't changed them yet, partly because I only just got home yesterday, partly because the Elixirs are still in good shape, and partly because I don't know what I want to replace them with - possibly even the same again. I'm not a huge Elixir fan but they seem to suit this guitar.

I use a very simple method. I poke the string through the hole, leave just enough slack to get a bit of traction on the peg, and wind it on with my left hand, using my right ring and little fingers to pull up on the string over the fretboard to keep the tension on, and my thumb to press it down towards the headstock so that it spirals downwards and has a good break angle. No loops, no knots, no tricks. I like to have at least one full turn for the plain strings (usually one and a half, give or take) and at least a half turn for the wound strings (usually one whole turn).

Then I tune up roughly, cut the ends off, stretch the strings by pressing down with my thumb, tune up roughly, stretch once more, and tune up for real. Then I'll play them in for 5 or 10 minutes, and if necessary adjust the tuning one more time.

ToneControl · May 2022

Tannin said:

50mm is standard on 12-strings, ToneControl, although 48mm is also common.

I'm meaning it would be a lot for a 6 string
You were saying you liked a wide neck, but 50mm was too much

I like 47mm-48mm

guitarjack66 · May 2022

Tannin said:

Ahh, but that's not me @Mellish. Assuming you are looking at the WA May, that's the chap at Maton who puts the strings on. Those are still the factory Elixir Nanoweb 12s on it. I haven't changed them yet, partly because I only just got home yesterday, partly because the Elixirs are still in good shape, and partly because I don't know what I want to replace them with - possibly even the same again. I'm not a huge Elixir fan but they seem to suit this guitar.

I use a very simple method. I poke the string through the hole, leave just enough slack to get a bit of traction on the peg, and wind it on with my left hand, using my right ring and little fingers to pull up on the string over the fretboard to keep the tension on, and my thumb to press it down towards the headstock so that it spirals downwards and has a good break angle. No loops, no knots, no tricks. I like to have at least one full turn for the plain strings (usually one and a half, give or take) and at least a half turn for the wound strings (usually one whole turn).

Then I tune up roughly, cut the ends off, stretch the strings by pressing down with my thumb, tune up roughly, stretch once more, and tune up for real. Then I'll play them in for 5 or 10 minutes, and if necessary adjust the tuning one more time.

I use a method where I take the string around the post first,then through the hole,before kinking it upwise and then tightening as you do. Well,that's the theory if I have a flat surface and neck support,which I seldom do.

Tannin · May 2022

Ahh, now I get you @ToneControl I spent many years playing wide necks, started on a classical (50mm) and then only had an Eston (Eko) 12-string for ages. After that, most of my playing for the next few decades was on a Yamaha 12. So I find narrow necks difficult. (By "narrow" I mean "normal 6-string".)

Up until a year or so ago I'd have said that my ideal nut would be 47-48mm, same as you. But I started running into muscular problems in my left arm, over-use mostly, but made worse by over-stretching on the baritone (730mm scale) and the 12-string (50mm wide). So I've backed off a bit and now would (in a perfect world) go for about 46mm. Having sworn that I would never buy another damn "narrow neck" guitar (43, 44, 45mm) and would find the extra cash to have wider-neck ones custom made, last week I paid a custom-made price for ....yep ... yet another standard size (44mm nut) guitar.

(Could I have ordered one the same only with a wider neck? Sure. It would have cost only a little extra, but there is a 6-12 month waiting list. Maybe next time. Or maybe, now that I only have six strings, I'll actually get used to 44mm. Wish me luck!

Tannin · May 2022

JezWynd said:

Beautiful guitar, I'm sure you made the right choice. Looking at the pic of the fretboard in the store link you provided, the Indian Rosewood seems to have practically no grain at all; is that down to careful selection of the wood or is it treated to achieve that smooth finish?

Hi @JezWynd, I linked to a few too many different guitars, I think! Sorry for the confusion. The one I bought has an ebony fretboard. Of the two that I nearly bought, one (The Tommy Emmanuel) is rosewood, the other (the orange one) is also ebony.

Now that you mention it, all three of them have very even, practically grainless, fretboards. I'm guessing here, but I reckon that would be down to careful selection of the woods. Maton makes about 10,000 guitars a year, but the Custom Shop makes fewer than 100: Andy gets first pick of the timbers and can reject 100 for every one he uses. Whether he then treats it as well to get such an even result I don't know.

Tannin · May 2022

@guitarjack66 - When I was learning to make bread, I remember watching a video where the chap said something like:

"There are at least five ways to knead dough. They all work."

I'm starting to think the same applies to winding strings on!

guitarjack66 · May 2022

Tannin said:

@guitarjack66 - When I was learning to make bread, I remember watching a video where the chap said something like:

"There are at least five ways to knead dough. They all work."

I'm starting to think the same applies to winding strings on!

When I first started playing I watched so many string changing videos with different methods that I feared my strings would ever need changing at all. Since then though I quite enjoy changing strings as it feels like an accomplishment given how much I used to dread it.

JezWynd · May 2022

Tannin said:

JezWynd said:

Beautiful guitar, I'm sure you made the right choice. Looking at the pic of the fretboard in the store link you provided, the Indian Rosewood seems to have practically no grain at all; is that down to careful selection of the wood or is it treated to achieve that smooth finish?

Hi @JezWynd, I linked to a few too many different guitars, I think! Sorry for the confusion. The one I bought has an ebony fretboard. Of the two that I nearly bought, one (The Tommy Emmanuel) is rosewood, the other (the orange one) is also ebony.

Now that you mention it, all three of them have very even, practically grainless, fretboards. I'm guessing here, but I reckon that would be down to careful selection of the woods. Maton makes about 10,000 guitars a year, but the Custom Shop makes fewer than 100: Andy gets first pick of the timbers and can reject 100 for every one he uses. Whether he then treats it as well to get such an even result I don't know.

The one I was referring to was the Custom Shop WA May Trad. Looking at it again in detail I see traces of a very fine grain. The craftsmanship shows in every facet of the Maton, I imagine they sound stellar once they're played in. Happy new guitar day!

bertie · May 2022

Tannin said:

Finally, the most visually impressive of the three, the TE

FTFY

I cant look at that "stripey" headstock without wincing and squinting

guitarjack66 · May 2022

bertie said:

Tannin said:

Finally, the most visually impressive of the three, the TE

FTFY

I cant look at that "stripey" headstock without wincing and squinting

I do think it's a visual 'faux pas' on Maton's part but I'm sure it's a fantastic playing guitar.

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