Recommend me some scales to noodle in

personalnadir · April 2022

I’m all about noodling, and recently that’s just been in C major. Before that it was all pentatonic.

The other night I switched back to the pentatonic and was struck by how my playing radically changed.

That got me thinking: I should try other scales and chords and see what happens. However it’s always hard to figure out what the next steps are from the above.

Are there different scales that work well over the c major chords? Are there different chords the c major scale works over in interesting ways? Are there whole other scale and chord combos that people turn to for everyday use?

i’m referencing everything in regards to C for simplicity. I know I can move the root and play B major over the chords of B major, which is interesting in terms of getting out of ruts, but sonically sounds similar to me

viz · April 2022

personalnadir said:

I know I can move the root and play B major over the chords of B major, which is interesting in terms of getting out of ruts, but sonically sounds similar to me

As it should.

So after you’ve understood major, learn about minor, then mixolydian (major with a lowered 7th) and Dorian (minor with a raised 6th)

Then there’s a myriad of others to try but I’d say get those 4 understood first.

Understanding them is more important than being able to play them well, IMO, because music is as much about head and heart as it is about hands.

equalsql · April 2022

The Dimished scale, so tone - 1/2 tone steps, i.e. C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B
It's really cool sounding.

digitalkettle · April 2022

As @viz suggests, work through the major scale modes in order of 'usefulness'.
Subjective: major (ionian), minor (aeolian), mixolydian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, locrian (?)
I don't really work like this but I did slavishly put in the mode-hours when I was younger and more foolisher

Which leads to: what are you playing over?
You're going to need a sensible context to get proper benefit, e.g. Google for 'drone backing track'.

personalnadir · April 2022

digitalkettle said:

As @viz suggests, work through the major scale modes in order of 'usefulness’

[….]

Which leads to: what are you playing over?
You're going to need a sensible context to get proper benefit, e.g. Google for 'drone backing track'.

good question! I tried putting some chords down on a looper, which exposed an issue. If I put down G, Dm, Am, C, then I the C Major and A Aeolian and B Locrian are all the same scale shape, just the root note moves.

I’m assuming the chords for B Locrian should be in someway different to those of C Major to get the benefit? Or is it the case that I should be changing scale root with each chord? Or is it just down to how the scale is played in the different modes?

I tried using iReal Pro, which has a couple of modal exercises with some spicier chords - which was interesting, but it sounded like a lot of those exercises are changing the key (the Dorian exercise has been F#m and Fm)

digitalkettle · April 2022

You can use a B Locrian shape/notes by all means...but if the tonal centre is C, you're playing C major (ionian mode).

C Ionian (natural major) - C D E F G A B - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D Dorian - D E F G A B C - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
E Phrygian - E F G A B C D - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
F Lydian - F G A B C D E - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
A Aeolian (natural minor) - A B C D E F G - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
B Locrian - B C D E F G A - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

In strictly diatonic harmony, they all share the same chords...so stacking the 3rds to list the 7th chords:
Cmaj7 - C E G B
Dmin7 - D F A C
Emin7 - E G B D
Fmaj7 - F A C E
G7 - G B D F
Amin7 - A C E G
Bmin7b5 - B D F A

If you want to noodle B Locrian (not a great choice, imho), you need a B Locrian progression...erm...something like:
| Bm7b5 / / / | Bm7b5 / Am7 Cmaj7 |
Strong consonant chords in there but it leans heavily enough on the B to be Locrian.

digitalkettle · April 2022

There are some folks around here with some proper schooling on this subject but this kind of thing might be enough to open some doors for you.

Beyond noodling, the best improv can come from:

knowing the underlying key
knowing the chords and understanding the extensions that you can imply, e.g. you see/hear an F but you can think Fmaj7#11
thinking about themes/motifs/rhythmic ideas
breathing

Playing modes over a simple drone (often very purposefully along a single string) can open your ear to their unique sounds.

stratman3142 · April 2022

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

personalnadir · April 2022

Thanks, that’s all super helpful. I’ve just read this:
https://www.fretjam.com/modal-chord-progressions.html

from that I guess it’s about creating the right progression for the mode.

HAL9000 · April 2022

I’m mainly a blues rock player and mostly self taught. Until recently I’ve never analysed what scales I use - I’ve just tried to play what, to my mind, sounds right.

Analysing what I do, it seems I actually mix two scales - the minor blues scale and the mixolydian (not that I even knew what mixolydian was until earlier today!).

Anyway, the point I’m making is that you don’t need to restrict yourself to just one scale or mode at a time. Find ways of mixing more than one. Almost certainly there will be some things that clash or jar somewhat, but just as likely you’ll discover phrases or licks that you might not otherwise have considered.

digitalkettle · April 2022

personalnadir said:

Thanks, that’s all super helpful. I’ve just read this:
https://www.fretjam.com/modal-chord-progressions.html

from that I guess it’s about creating the right progression for the mode.

Bit waffly...the examples are useful-ish though

stratman3142 · April 2022

HAL9000 said:

...Analysing what I do, it seems I actually mix two scales - the minor blues scale and the mixolydian (not that I even knew what mixolydian was until earlier today!).

Which interestingly ends up with the same notes as I described in my earlier post for blues noodling.

So in C it's: C(1), D(2), Eb(b3), E(3), F(4), Gb(b5), G(5), A(6), Bb(b7)

The way it evolved for me was as major pentatonic merged with minor pentatonic, with an added b5. I'm old and the early rock solos I learned by ear largely pentatonic based. If fact I didn't really have a name for them at the time. Plus I probably got that bluesy Dorian sound from listening to Peter Frampton and the Mixolydian sound from Jeff Beck. Then I just stated to merge ideas/sounds together.

If I were to try to put a label on the group of notes now, I suppose it could be called either

Mixolydian with an added b3 and b5 (in my 'Jeff Beck' mindset)
or, Dorian with an added ma3 and b5 (in my 'Peter Frampton' mindset)

Tannin · April 2022

@stratman3142 ;Wilf Smith calls this (or something very like it) "the swing scale". Essentially, it is (if my memory can be trusted) a major scale with a b7, and add on b3 and b5. I went looking for the video where he explains yesterday, intending to post it here, but couldn't find it. Like you, I came across it for myself, long before I discovered that there was a name for it. I frequently also play the natural (major) 7.

(Wilf plays a style which is a very long way away from what I play, and probably what you play too, but that doesn't matter. He is, in his delightfully simple homespun way, an excellent teacher and a chording wizard. Recommended.)

digitalkettle · April 2022

@stratman3142 ;So, add a few passing chromaticisms and all the notes are right...you just have to worry about playing them in the right order

stratman3142 · April 2022

Tannin said:

...I frequently also play the natural (major) 7...

Actually that's something I sometimes do on the 5 chord of a blue progression. So in the key of C, the 5 chord (G) has a B as it's 3rd. I think I'm probably hearing it as a part of a G arpeggio superimposed on top of the other notes I'm using.

Barney · April 2022

Try flattening the 3rd of the major scale to give you melodic minor

Sorry I didn't read the full post ....maybe try some arpeggios ....from the c major scale Cmaj7..Dm7 ..Em7 ect

guitars4you · April 2022

stratman3142 said:

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

that covers about 90 odd % of my playing/noodling/improvising - My dad was a decent tenor sax player - big band/jazz/swing/jump jive etc and he said that was the jist of his playing

kelpbeds · April 2022

Altered is great fun over resolving dominant 7th chords.

stratman3142 · April 2022

guitars4you said:

stratman3142 said:

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

that covers about 90 odd % of my playing/noodling/improvising - My dad was a decent tenor sax player - big band/jazz/swing/jump jive etc and he said that was the jist of his playing

Coincidentally, Tim Pierce talks about something similar in today's live stream from about 1:58 to 4:40 (clip below). Except his example is in the key of A.

PAL · April 2022

I don't think you should noodle in scales ! They are useful but it's worth playing outside a scale or key. We think too much about scale and modes but if you check out most good players they don't limit themselves in that way.

viz · April 2022

Playing scales is like whisking an egg or chopping mushrooms. It’s good, professional chefs would say necessary, to be good at it. But the magic is in the omelette, not the chopped mushrooms.

I’m not that good at playing scales - I’ve never learned how to play them properly and don’t normally incorporate long scalar structures in my playing. Understanding the notes in a key or scale though, I’d say that’s pretty mandatory, even if it’s only a a tacit / experiential understanding.

personalnadir · April 2022

So what would be the next step on from noodling in scales? I’ve tried focussing on arpeggios, but they feel a lot more restrictive and harder to deploy.

viz · April 2022

Play tunes that are bursting out of your heart, using the “right” notes (ie in the key). Put the guitar down, go for a walk and whistle or sing, then come back and play it.

viz · April 2022

personalnadir said:

I tried putting some chords down on a looper, which exposed an issue. If I put down G, Dm, Am, C, then I the C Major and A Aeolian and B Locrian are all the same scale shape, just the root note moves.

I’m assuming the chords for B Locrian should be in someway different to those of C Major to get the benefit? Or is it the case that I should be changing scale root with each chord? Or is it just down to how the scale is played in the different modes?

For any progression, what you really need to do, to understand the key, and the key's notes, is to follow these steps. I'll take your G-Dm-Am-C looped progression as an example.

1) Identify the root. This is pretty much the first thing you have to be able to do as a musician. Other words for root are key note, home note, 1-chord, "what the song is in", final resting place, foundation note, fundament, base, home base, etc. In your little progression the home note is G. This is pretty uncontroversial. The progression starts and ends on G (because it's actually G-Dm-Am-C-G). So G is the root. If you struggle to hear that with absolute finality, then try listening to more music and practise listening to where the music draws to a close. It's not always the first chord, but it often is. It's normally the last chord, but sometimes it's not. In your progression it is. The way you've written it looks like the last chord is C, but it's not, it's G. Because it returns to a final G after that C. It's sort-of like this:

G-Dm-Am-C / G-Dm-Am-C / G-Dm-Am-C / G-G-G-G.

You should be able to hear those chords going round and round and hear where home base is and correctly identify it as G.

2) Identify the "tonality". There are 3 choices: major, minor, or ambiguous. The way to find out is to see what your G chord is. Well, you've already said, it's G, not G minor, so you're in a G major tonality. It could still be ambiguous, so to be bullet proof, you could look to see if there are any G minor notes in the rest of the chords. The major / minor determining note is the 3rd. In G, that would mean a B for G major, and a Bb for G minor. You just have to know that. Now, when you look at your other chords to see if any of them deploy a Bb, none of them do. Actually none of them has a B or a Bb - the notes just don't exist in Dm chord, Am chord or C chord. But importantly there's nothing to give a hint of G minor. So it's not ambiguous. You're in a G major tonality.

3) Establish the chords of the progression, agnostic of key. You're playing 1 chord, 5 chord, 2 chord, 4 chord. You can just count up the alphabet to find that out. Now, you're playing the 1 as Major, the 5 as minor, the 2 as minor and the 4 as major. So the progression is a 1524, and written in Roman Numerals, it's I - v - ii - IV. (the Capital letters denote Major.

4) Identify the scale that fits with this progression. You have to ask, are you in bog-standard "Major" (AKA "Ionian mode") or one of the other major modes?

OK. There are two other major modes besides Ionian. They are Lydian and Mixolydian. Which are you in? Well, there are some clues in your chords. You can't be in G Ionian, because G Ionian has a V chord, not a v chord. And you can't be in G Lydian, because that has a raised IV chord (as well as a major V chord). Whereas what makes mixolydian special is that it has a minor 5 chord - in other words, a v not a V. (This is just stuff you have to learn.) So your progression is in G Mixolydian.

The notes of G mixolydian are G A B C D E F G. (yes it's the same notes as C major, or B locrian (which is horseshit so put it out of your mind), or A minor. But those facts are irrelevant. Because you are in G, not another letter.)

And the chords of G mixolydian are G Am Bdim C Dm Em F and G.

As you can see, I - v - ii - IV fits perfectly with it. I've bolded the chords above to prove it.

5) Noodle away. There you are. G mixolydian it is. If you noodle in G mixolydian throughout that progression it will sound fine. Of course you can deviate from that to create interest and tension. but the default notes are G A B C D E F G.

Roland · April 2022

personalnadir said:

So what would be the next step on from noodling in scales? I’ve tried focussing on arpeggios, but they feel a lot more restrictive and harder to deploy.

Play notes. You already know the major scale and the minor pentatonic. Experiment with the other notes. Feel how they sound. Try using them to slide or hammer into and out of the notes you already know. Scales are just the names which have been given to particular note sequences. What is important is that you know how the notes sound in relation to each other.

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Recommend me some scales to noodle in

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