Question for jazz players

musicegbdf · April 2022

I have just got " Mickey Bakers Jazz book"
First lesson is 26 must learn chords. I would say I already know about 50% of them . There is one that I do wonder about.
It is 13 b5b9.
The example given is a no root chord using the b5 , b9 , b7 , 13 and 3rd. I was working out how to identify it as a movable and guess the 3rd I'd the best one.
Having googled and looked in various chord books and not found a 13 b5 b9 .
My question is this a common jazz chord ?

greejn · April 2022

No, it isn't. A 13 b9 is very common though, in many jazz tunes and Stevie Wonder songs. I don't actually find that book very helpful.

ArchtopDave · April 2022

I love that first lesson. It probably fills quite a few guitarists with horror..." Wot, 26 chords actually exist!"

As always, how you name notes and chords depends on the harmonic context... thus the ♭5 is open to reinterpretation as a ♯4, or♯11. The ♭9 ♯11 13 chord is well recognised in jazz.

musicegbdf · April 2022

To be honest that chord sounds OK, a bit like a 6/9. I was surprised it is listed as an important chord , same as one of the Maj 7 he shows which is a stretch for me as have small fingers. ( don't think Django needed those chords) .
Also he doesn't make it clear it us a no root chord. Most of the other chords seem logical , except there is only one diminished and no augmented in his 26 " essential" .
I will plod on ...
I bought my first big box , ( ibanez lgb30 ) and now retired intend to dedicate time to learn more.

viz · April 2022

ArchtopDave said:

I love that first lesson. It probably fills quite a few guitarists with horror..." Wot, 26 chords actually exist!"
As always, how you name notes and chords depends on the harmonic context... thus the ♭5 is open to reinterpretation as a ♯4, or♯11. The ♭9 ♯11 13 chord is well recognised in jazz.

Totally yes.

Koa · April 2022

I’ve owned the Mickey Baker book for many years having had it recommended by a guitarist in a covers band with a cool old 335 and some great Jazz chords he’d throw in. I was told at one time the book was written a long time ago and is now old fashioned.Despite trying several times I’ve never progressed any further than learning some of the chords, transposing and being able to substitute …I know I’m missing something fundamental .Any other recommendations as to how to start in Jazz?

CaseOfAce · April 2022

greejn said:

No, it isn't. A 13 b9 is very common though, in many jazz tunes and Stevie Wonder songs. I don't actually find that book very helpful.

Likewise. I really tried with this book (originally bought cos y'know Robben Ford).
I get the idea at the time it was the go to text because basically there was nothing else out there?
(It certainly benefited Mr. Baker who retired to a lovely French village on the proceeds?).

First off there were no fret numbers on the chord boxes.. so out came the pencil...

then the first few lessons - learn the chords - these are some progressions - master them in ALL keys before moving on...
and I just lost the will to live. Music surely is more fun than this?

If you really want to make best use of the book this guy explains in detail what Mr. Baker is actually teaching you in each lesson:-

Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar Lesson 1 (smellytele.com)

Good luck.

jpfamps · April 2022

Looks like a #9 tritone sub to me.

Put a D in the bass underr# a Ab7#9 and you get D13 b5 b9.

musicegbdf · April 2022

Thanks that is interesting. I do think identifying a root , or if no root identify a 3rd or 5th would have been a help to navigate. I have done it myself now.
Yes it does feel old fashioned.
I have got a couple of other jazz books which I will use as well.

musicegbdf · April 2022

The fingering is OK, just wondered if it was one of the most important chords in jazz , when there isn't a single augmented chord in his top 26 chords. (which I use already as a passing to a resolution.)
He also gives a tricky Mag 7 chord , but misses other Maj7 that are easier.
Though as has been said it is an old book.
I have " The Jazz guitar handbook" , which is easier plus " Jazzology " which I haven't started with yet.

Yorkie · April 2022

I've got Jazzology too, but after reading the first three pages I realised that maybe I needed to read something more basic first.

musicegbdf · April 2022

Haven't tried it yet. The Jazz guitar handbook , the first 100 pages is basic. I will work through it though.

musicegbdf · April 2022

Have watched Jens Larsen on YouTube, but sometimes gets a bit beyond me. So trying to learn more and then try again.

viz · April 2022

musicegbdf said:

I have " The Jazz guitar handbook" , which is easier plus " Jazzology "

No you haven’t.

musicegbdf · April 2022

viz said:

musicegbdf said:

I have " The Jazz guitar handbook" , which is easier plus " Jazzology "

No you haven’t.

? Am I missing something?
I have both books.

viz · April 2022

musicegbdf said:

viz said:

musicegbdf said:

I have " The Jazz guitar handbook" , which is easier plus " Jazzology "

No you haven’t.

? Am I missing something?
I have both books.

You gave me Jazzology

- probably coz you had 2 copies, now I come to think of it.

musicegbdf · April 2022

Ahhh , I remember now . Haha.
That all seems so long ago ...
The memory is the first to go.

Brad · April 2022

I wouldn’t worry so much about if certain chords are ‘important’ or ‘common’ jazz chords. For me, the humble triad is the most important chord, regardless of genre. Getting a good grasp of Maj, Min, Dim and Aug and the inversions (both closed and open) will give you access to all the sounds and textures you’ll need.

That being said, here are 3 different ways (of which there are many) to play Cmaj7:

3 3 2 4 x x

x 3 5 x 5 7

x x 10 12 12 12

Each gives a different texture and sound, and pose a different technical challenge. But think about this, if you really know the chords tones, you’ve access to 7th, m7, m7b5, dim7, Alt 7ths etc etc just by adjusting the relevant chord tone in each voicing and understanding how they apply as rootless chords. That’s a hell of a lot of chords!

If any , or all 3 don’t work for you, that’s fine, don’t worry about it. If the sound is worth it, then it’s worth sticking at it but they are only options. So same as that Mikey Baker book. Take what you like, jettison what you don’t. You may find over time that you work the things into your playing that you initially rejected or couldn’t quite understand.

Tannin · April 2022

musicegbdf said:

Have watched Jens Larsen on YouTube, but sometimes gets a bit beyond me. So trying to learn more and then try again.

The trouble with watching Jens Larsen is that you get 2 minutes into the video and stop it there because he's given you more good stuff than you can handle in one go and you need to spend a week weeks getting your head around it (not to mention learning how to play it), and another six weeks chasing down all the rabbit hole ideas the previous idea sparked .... and there is still another 5 minutes left on the video!

Love Jens, but ohhh .. he makes my brain hurt.

Cryptid · April 2022

Jens' videos give me anxiety; they're chock full of good stuff but I find there's a frantic and frenetic vibe to his delivery and editing which turns me right off.

viz · April 2022

Jens Larsen - I think he’s fantastic, so clear.

Jalapeno · April 2022

CaseOfAce said:

then the first few lessons - learn the chords - these are some progressions - master them in ALL keys before moving on...
and I just lost the will to live. Music surely is more fun than this?

If you really want to make best use of the book this guy explains in detail what Mr. Baker is actually teaching you in each lesson:-

Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar Lesson 1 (smellytele.com)

Good luck.

Wis'd - when you get on to the single note stuff it's a bit "trust me I'm a doctor", the insight that link gives is what took me a while to realise - Mickey Baker is training your ear. I agree with the link, it's very light on theory.

The all-keys mantra is common to nearly all jazz tuition I've taken - make it more enjoyable by taking the exercise up/down the cycle of 4ths/5ths, because it's really common key transition in jazz tunes (eg. Rythmn Changes). Make it a regular exercise - I think it would take forever to "master" it, but go for familiarity and a degree of proficiency. When I was using the MB book with a teacher we'd do half chord work, and half single notes ( which starts later in the book), and use them in parrallel as I agree that life's too short.

musicegbdf · April 2022

Glad it is not only me that has brain pain watching him. Each time I think wow there is so much to learn , so I will go back to him . Maybe as you say Tannin take it is small chunks.
Brad , yes I was coming to the conclusion. What I do, is observe a basic chord, and then which note to move to change the chord either from the triad or an extension. I have gone back to the Jazz guitar handbook as a form of revision and will then take it from there.

Nitefly · April 2022

Crikey, I bought the Mickey Baker book second-hand in 1968!

I can't remember the names of any of the chords (couldn't be arsed learning them to be honest) BUT I did learn his little 12-bar chord solo just from the shapes - still play it now...

musicegbdf · April 2022

Will give that a go then :-)

dcg · April 2022

Yes, given when the books were written, Mickey Baker's tuition may now seem old-fashioned if you're looking to be the hot fusioneer who takes every song 'out' as soon as they've played the head - but I still think they're a great place to start. And even to finish if you respect the Mickey Baker legacy, and the sophistication he brought to so many records...

musicegbdf · April 2022

I am going to use it as my base learning tool before I move onto the next level.

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