Swapping my Grover Rotomatics

Bonzo · March 2022

Greetings,

I'm thinking about swapping out the Grover Roto's on my 2018 Re-imagined Martin M-36 for something open backed like the Gotoh SXN510 (I think!).

I don't hate the Rotomatics, they work really well, it's just that I've always had a bit of a dislike to the look of them, with their big washers, on Martin headstocks.

I'd ideally like a straight 'no modifications' fit so that I can go back if I don't fancy them/change my mind.

Anyone done a similar swap and can confirm there's no extra mods required (save another small screw on the back) - and which tuners they replaced them with?

Cheers.

Teyeplayer · March 2022

I’m pretty sure it was Grover’s that I removed on my Maton and swapped in Kluson Deluxes. Instantly made for a lighter headstock and an airier tone that had more warmth to it. Took an extra screw hole and swapped out bushings. Massive improvement all round.

ICBM · March 2022

There’s a very slight difference in the screw hole position for the hole that gets re-used, but it’s probably within the range where you won’t have to plug and redrill - the screw might go in at a slight angle to start with, but will pull straight as you tighten it.

You will still need conversion bushings though, so it won’t give the ‘correct’ vintage appearance.

I thought about doing that on my Gibson Dove, but in the end I replaced the nickel kidney-bean Rotomatics with chrome keystone Rotomatics… it almost seemed a bit pointless until after I’d done it - the improvement is *huge* visually (the Dove is a 60s design not 50s, so chrome keystones are the *right* type - Gibson, pay attention!) and I dislike nickel anyway. But even more remarkably, the keystone keys are a lot lighter than the kidney beans, and it noticeably improved the sound of the guitar - MrsICBM heard it straight away too, it’s not just my imagination. (I reused the same strings, to make sure it wasn’t that!)

Mellish · March 2022

I don't know if the screw holes would match up but Schaller butterbean openbacks are nice

bertie · March 2022

not a Martin headstock obvs. but show's the vast improvement IMHO, especially on a smaller Martin

Image: https://i.imgur.com/qrdxaIu.jpg?1

so how does the M-series sound ? personally Id got the other way, small body, deep - but interesting to hear what the M is like

Mellish · March 2022

When I see openback tuners, it's like I'm being taken back in time. To me, they add character

TheMadMick · March 2022

As with so many things, there are positives and negatives.

With open gears you are more likely to get stuff in the works and wear, or in extremis, a jam

Conversely, if they go wrong you should be able to see what it is without trying to disassemble that which was never intended to be disassembled.

Ho Hum - such is life!

bertie · March 2022

s'funny cos as a kid - it seemed only cheapo guitars had open backs, so ANY form of closed back was seen as "top shagging" and that mindset kind of stuck for quite a while...................now it seems the other way

Gomers · March 2022

Not sure I’d want to put open backs on a modern interpretation of a Martin which is where the M sits in my view.

If it were mine, I’d be swapping those big Grovers out for the like-for-like replacement, Gotoh SG301 (both ovaloid and Grover style buttons available).

Of course, none of that matters if you really don’t like the style. However the SG301s are a lot less bulky and so much more superior to Grovers.

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

Never been a fan of open back machine heads, things always get stuck between gears, and nowadays that tends to be my beard.

Tannin · March 2022

Teyeplayer said:

I’m pretty sure it was Grover’s that I removed on my Maton and swapped in Kluson Deluxes. Instantly made for a lighter headstock and an airier tone that had more warmth to it.

ICBM said:

But even more remarkably, the keystone keys are a lot lighter than the kidney beans, and it noticeably improved the sound of the guitar - MrsICBM heard it straight away too, it’s not just my imagination.

Very curious. I have a hard time getting my head around a change of tuners making a change to the sound, or at least a change that any normal person would notice. (I'm counting Mrs ICBM as a normal person here.)

Yes @Teyeplayer Grovers are the standard Maton tuner fitted to all models.

Like others here, I well remember seeing closed-back tuners as something new and rather posh. I've come to just expect them as routine these days and don't quite get the open-back love you see around. That said, I don't pay much attention to the back of headstocks: thinking about it just now I was reasonably confident that my lot are all closed back except the Guild - but I actually had to go and look to be sure.

But to contradict myself, the look of tuners needs to match the guitar. The soft curves of the headstock in Bertie's picture positively demand a curvy, classic-style tuner (open-back or closed-back, doesn't matter). The treble-side tuners on it look awful - but they would be fine on something with a more angular, modern vibe.

The view from the front of the guitar matters more to me. From that point of view, closed-back vs open-back is a non-issue, but the shape and colour of the pegs needs to suite the shapes and the timbers.

(Still scratching my head over the reports of changed sound.)

ICBM · March 2022

Tannin said:

Very curious. I have a hard time getting my head around a change of tuners making a change to the sound, or at least a change that any normal person would notice. (I'm counting Mrs ICBM as a normal person here.)

Like others here, I well remember seeing closed-back tuners as something new and rather posh. I've come to just expect them as routine these days and don't quite get the open-back love you see around. That said, I don't pay much attention to the back of headstocks: thinking about it just now I was reasonably confident that my lot are all closed back except the Guild - but I actually had to go and look to be sure.

But to contradict myself, the look of tuners needs to match the guitar. The soft curves of the headstock in Bertie's picture positively demand a curvy, classic-style tuner (open-back or closed-back, doesn't matter). The treble-side tuners on it look awful - but they would be fine on something with a more angular, modern vibe.

The view from the front of the guitar matters more to me. From that point of view, closed-back vs open-back is a non-issue, but the shape and colour of the pegs needs to suite the shapes and the timbers.

(Still scratching my head over the reports of changed sound.)

I’m certain it’s because the mass of the headstock changes the resonance of the neck, which is a very important factor in the sound of a guitar.

The Grover kidney-bean keys are *really* heavy - the heaviest of any tuners I know of.

My experience in general is that more mass at the headstock gives a deeper and more scooped sound, less mass gives more midrange - that’s definitely the difference I heard.

MrsICBM is *reasonably* normal, but does have a lot of experience of me asking her to listen carefully to sounds

.

I also completely agree about the look - and the feel of the keys - the main reason I changed them is because the nickel kidney-beans were just clunky and wrong, whereas the chrome keystones are perfect (in particular they match the shape of the headstock inlay). The tone change was a bonus, although I did expect it.

I’m also not really a fan of open-gear tuners, although they’re OK on vintage guitars which came with them. I generally like modern ones, but they don’t look right on the guitar above - the angular metal keys don’t look right on any older guitar design, and they never did even when people were fitting Schaller M6s to them in the 1970s either…

Tannin · March 2022

Interesting!

So, to test this theory, I could (with suitable care) attach (say) a metal G clamp from my workshop to the head of a guitar and listen to the tone change - maybe turn my Adi and 'hawg Guild into something more akin to a rosewood OM-28! I can't wait to try it. (Also, to try the brass bridge pins which arrived the other day and are still in the packet.)

Kittyfrisk · March 2022

^ This was pretty much the reasoning behind the "Fathead" devices sold in the 1970's.

Article with pics here https://www.guitarscanada.com/threads/have-you-ever-heard-of-fathead-for-peg-head.267491/

I'd bet there's more than one person here on TFB that will have one in a parts drawer

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