Advice looking for a replacement guitar

itm · August 2014

I'm an intermediate level guitar student looking for a new guitar, but don't know where to start. I currently have an old Yamaha FG180 (red label Nippon Gakki) but I think it may have intonation problems (difficult keeping the bottom strings in tune when not played open). Having already spent £65 getting a setup and an issue with the nut resolved I'm now looking to trade it in for something that I'll find easier to keep in tune.

My preference is for something second-hand (don't want to spend more than about £80 if possible), and I'm based in Richmond in West London. I was wondering if anyone could offer any suggestions on models that would be worth looking at, and maybe any local dealers that would offer reasonable deals?

ICBM · August 2014

My honest advice is to have someone else have a look at it - there's no way you'll get anything remotely that good for that sort of money, and there's no reason it shouldn't stay in tune (or play in tune, which is more what you're describing) if it's sorted out properly.

In fact, you're unlikely to get anything that good for £180, let alone £80.

Gassage · August 2014

I could let you know of a local dealer who'll offer a totally unreasonable deal and will be as rude as fuck to you just as a bonus

Call Al at Chandlers.

Never knowingly overly nice to anyone.

crunchman · August 2014

Gassage said:

I could let you know of a local dealer who'll offer a totally unreasonable deal and will be as rude as fuck to you just as a bonus

Call Al at Chandlers.

Never knowingly overly nice to anyone.

Al is fine. Take into Chandlers and let the repair guys have a look at it and give you a quote if anything needs doing.

As said above you are going to struggle to get anything properly good for £80. At that price the only chance you would have is looking for a bargain on Gumtree or Feebay.

xSkarloey · August 2014

Gassage;333966" said:
I could let you know of a local dealer who'll offer a totally unreasonable deal and will be as rude as fuck to you just as a bonus

Call Al at Chandlers.

Never knowingly overly nice to anyone.

Nah. Call him instead to say you're taking it to Charlie's shop in Hampton Wick.

That is a seriously nice guitar you have and it's worth a second opinion. But if you are looking for something new try Guitar Guitar in Epsom. Big range.

xSkarloey · August 2014

One more from me: Ritz music opposite the Red Cow are always very nice to deal with and stock the Tanglewood range plus a few others. They only sell new. The Putney branch may have 2nd hand stock.

Nice folks and a total absence of attitude.

itm · August 2014

Thanks for all the feedback. When I had the neck/nut done at Guitar Aid in Putney they said that the body had become a little warped, and said that they'd put electric strings back on it as a consequence, to avoid putting too much stress on the neck. If the warping is causing the problem (which sounds likely?) then is it likely to be economical to repair?

Thanks for the recommendation re. Ritz Music - that's not far away so I'll pop in over the next couple of days.

ICBM · August 2014

itm said:

When I had the neck/nut done at Guitar Aid in Putney they said that the body had become a little warped, and said that they'd put electric strings back on it as a consequence, to avoid putting too much stress on the neck.

That should already have told you they don't know what they're doing!

I'm assuming they put 9s on it? Since you can get acoustic 10s...

9s are too light for an acoustic and will cause intonation problems because the guitar - and its bridge position - was designed for heavier ones with a wound third string.

If the body has "warped" (or bellied, which is what this is usually called), it *may* make it difficult to lower the action far enough - this is quite common on old Yamahas - but has no bearing on the stress on the neck.

In that case it's usually possibly to shave the bridge down a bit - the whole bridge as well as the saddle, if necessary - which will lower the action and reduce stress on the top. Even this should be within your budget of £80.

The worst case is that it may need a neck re-set (ie to change the angle it meets the body at), at which point it does probably become uneconomical, but I would find someone who actually knows something about acoustic guitars for a second opinion before worrying about that.

Don't trade away your nice old Yamaha for an inferior newer guitar when you can almost certainly fix it for less!

Paul_C · August 2014

if it is the top that's the problem, you could also try one of these - http://www.jldguitar.net/warped_tops/fixtop.html - I've fitted a few over the years and they've always worked really well.

Stewart MacDonald sell them - http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

xSkarloey · August 2014

That ain't good.

My advice would be to discuss it with Charlie Chandlers in Hampton Wick and at least get a quote for the job. Ritz Music in Putney also have a repair dept.

Phil_aka_Pip · August 2014

Paul_C said:

if it is the top that's the problem, you could also try one of these - http://www.jldguitar.net/warped_tops/fixtop.html - I've fitted a few over the years and they've always worked really well.

Stewart MacDonald sell them - http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

That's a good idea. It might resurrect one of my old guitars. Fanx 4 posting.

itm · August 2014

Maybe it's worth me trying some heavier strings first? (I think the current ones are 9s or 10s but can't tell). Any recommendations for what to try?

That's providing there's no danger of worsening any body warping by trying it?

ICBM · August 2014

Unlikely. They go that way over a very long time - obviously the string tension is the underlying cause, but it's nothing that's going to get worse in the short term just from putting slightly heavier strings on it. These guitars were built to take at least 12s and 13s, which were the normal gauges back then.

I would try at least some proper acoustic 10s to start with, or possibly 11s - 11s tend to have heavier bottom strings which will probably help the intonation. It might even be worth trying some with a 'piano wound' ball end, which is where the outer wrap doesn't go all the way to the end, and can intonate better - I'm pretty sure someone I knew with an old FG180 used Rotosound Country Golds on it for that reason. They give a very slightly lower action too, because the wrap sits slightly below the top of the saddle.

Gru · August 2014

Paul_C;335636" said:
if it is the top that's the problem, you could also try one of these - http://www.jldguitar.net/warped_tops/fixtop.html - I've fitted a few over the years and they've always worked really well.

Stewart MacDonald sell them - http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

I tried a bridge doctor on my old laminate acoustic and it made a huge difference. It went from almost unplayable sunken brigde, to playable with a pretty level top. I am sure if I had taken it for a bridge and nut setup it may have amazed me even more.

From a guitar I was almost going to dump, to one that I played for another 12-18 months before selling. The new owner is happy too.

For very little outlay and some time, a little fiddly, but easy enough to do yourself.

itm · August 2014

Thanks. I've ordered some Rotosound Country Gold 11s from Fleabay so fingers crossed. I hope the larger bottom strings sit OK in the nut!

ICBM said:

Unlikely. They go that way over a very long time - obviously the string tension is the underlying cause, but it's nothing that's going to get worse in the short term just from putting slightly heavier strings on it. These guitars were built to take at least 12s and 13s, which were the normal gauges back then.

I would try at least some proper acoustic 10s to start with, or possibly 11s - 11s tend to have heavier bottom strings which will probably help the intonation. It might even be worth trying some with a 'piano wound' ball end, which is where the outer wrap doesn't go all the way to the end, and can intonate better - I'm pretty sure someone I knew with an old FG180 used Rotosound Country Golds on it for that reason. They give a very slightly lower action too, because the wrap sits slightly below the top of the saddle.

CloudNine · August 2014

Have had two FG180s and they can be great sounding. Playability with a poor neck angle can be really awful, particularly so on these. They are also the hardest necks to reset due to the type of glue that was used. A complete nightmare for even the best luthiers. I would personally get it converted to a bolt neck. I have heard about this being done with great results. Might not be that cheap, but you could end up with a killer guitar. I might pick up another one and get this done actually. So far, having seen about 20 of these, I have never seen one with a good neck angle. Any that were playable, it had been achieved through shaved bridges and other shoddy fixes. I think the necks were actually a bit under-set from the factory.

ICBM · August 2014

itm said:

Thanks. I've ordered some Rotosound Country Gold 11s from Fleabay so fingers crossed. I hope the larger bottom strings sit OK in the nut!

The should be fine, the nut would have been cut for 12s originally - unless it's been replaced and the new one was cut specifically for the electric strings…

CloudNine said:

having seen about 20 of these, I have never seen one with a good neck angle. Any that were playable, it had been achieved through shaved bridges and other shoddy fixes. I think the necks were actually a bit under-set from the factory.

I agree, except that a properly done bridge shave is not a shoddy fix. You do have to be careful not to go too far and not have enough depth left for an adequate saddle slot, but that's usually not too much of an issue unless the body has really got to the point of no return. In which case itm's original plan is the best!

CloudNine · August 2014

Take your point @ICBM, but it's not normally break angle over the saddle, or depth of bridge slot that is the issue with bridge shaving. It is the overall height of the strings from the soundboard that you are left with after the shave. It is that height which provides the torque to move the top.

That is one of the most critical angle/measurements in acoustic guitars in my opinion. It needs to be round about half an inch from bottom of G or D string to the soundboard. I always think that is an essential factor in determining whether neck angle is correct and I always check it out on older guitars.

In my view a bridge shave is NEVER the best option. Might be the cheapest/easiest, but not the best.

VimFuego · August 2014

Paul_C said:

if it is the top that's the problem, you could also try one of these - http://www.jldguitar.net/warped_tops/fixtop.html - I've fitted a few over the years and they've always worked really well.

Stewart MacDonald sell them - http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

good post, thanks. I have my old acoustic which has just that problem and is almost unplayable as a result. I will try out one of those kits (got nothing to lose).

ICBM · August 2014

CloudNine said:

Take your point @ICBM, but it's not normally break angle over the saddle, or depth of bridge slot that is the issue with bridge shaving. It is the overall height of the strings from the soundboard that you are left with after the shave. It is that height which provides the torque to move the top.

That is one of the most critical angle/measurements in acoustic guitars in my opinion. It needs to be round about half an inch from bottom of G or D string to the soundboard. I always think that is an essential factor in determining whether neck angle is correct and I always check it out on older guitars.

In my view a bridge shave is NEVER the best option. Might be the cheapest/easiest, but not the best.

I agree that a neck re-set is always the better/best option, but on this guitar it won't be economical. I doubt converting it to a bolted joint would be either. The bridge shave is the next least expensive and if done well will not make a huge amount of difference to the tone on an old ply top guitar - I've done several old Yamahas like this and the results have been quite acceptable. I'd agree with you that it's not a good thing to do to a top-quality acoustic, but in that case a neck re-set will be economical. I probably wouldn't even do the bridge shave until after trying a Bridge Doctor though. Start cheap, work up!

richardhomer · August 2014

While I accept that shaving a bridge is not as good as a neck reset as a 'cure', if anyone has the Eric Clapton 'Unplugged' DVD, the close-ups of his pre-War Martin 00042 reveal it had had it done.

Presumably EC could have easily paid for a reset and given it was a guitar from Martin's most revered period, it would have made financial sense.

I can only assume he was satisfied with it the way it was.

CloudNine · August 2014

It is very likely that a pre-war Martin will still sound pretty damn good even with shaved bridge as the tops and bracing are so light compared to a lot of modern day guitars (which are beefed up to avoid warranty issues). Will still be responsive even without that maximum torque.

On a more modern guitar, maybe especially a laminate topped Yamaha, you might find it sounds a bit crap after the same operation.

I do probably agree that it wouldn't be the end of the world to try a shave on this particular guitar, given value etc. just pointing out that it is not guaranteed that the OP would be satisfied with the results. Could be a huge loss of volume and tone.

itm · September 2014

So I tried the bottom E from the Rotosound Country Gold 11s and it didn't help. Have dropped it into Charlie Chandler in Hampton Wick - it's booked into their workshop for an assessment. Fingers crossed....

ICBM · September 2014

itm said:

So I tried the bottom E from the Rotosound Country Gold 11s and it didn't help. Have dropped it into Charlie Chandler in Hampton Wick - it's booked into their workshop for an assessment. Fingers crossed....

Sorry to hear that

. The only consolation is that it was the cheapest thing to try first, and you could still use them to fractionally lower the action afterwards.

itm · September 2014

ICBM said:

itm said:

So I tried the bottom E from the Rotosound Country Gold 11s and it didn't help. Have dropped it into Charlie Chandler in Hampton Wick - it's booked into their workshop for an assessment. Fingers crossed....

Sorry to hear that . The only consolation is that it was the cheapest thing to try first, and you could still use them to fractionally lower the action afterwards.

Plus an extra set of strings is always handy.

Now the plot is thickening...I just dug out an old Fender Strat that I bought 30 years ago and it has a similar problem - bottom 2 strings out of tune (on the sharp side) when you fret them. It's been stored in various bedrooms and lofts for the last 30 years in its original Fender case. There seems to be a theme emerging here, but in this case the Strat has 30-year-old strings on it - could the old strings explain the problem?

ICBM · September 2014

Generally old strings play flat rather than sharp.

Still, you can't make any assessment of it with old strings on. A Strat should be possible to set up to intonate correctly no matter what though - unlike an acoustic the body can't have distorted, so it will always be possible. Just watch the neck and sometimes the middle pickup heights though, they can cause apparent tuning problems on the bottom strings especially around the 12th fret if they're too high.

crunchman · September 2014

itm said:

Now the plot is thickening...I just dug out an old Fender Strat that I bought 30 years ago and it has a similar problem - bottom 2 strings out of tune (on the sharp side) when you fret them. It's been stored in various bedrooms and lofts for the last 30 years in its original Fender case. There seems to be a theme emerging here, but in this case the Strat has 30-year-old strings on it - could the old strings explain the problem?

Are you pressing too hard when you fret?

Normally, I find it's the thinner strings that give me problems when I fret too hard though.

Kebabkid · September 2014

I'd bypass all the above shops and go to the very fine Charlie Chandler in Hampton Wick (not be confused with chandlers in Kew) and he'll give you an honest opinion. He can put it up for sale in the shop but he will take 15% commission if it sells. There might be something in there that you could part exchange for.

http://www.guitarexperience.co.uk/

itm · September 2014

crunchman said:

itm said:

Now the plot is thickening...I just dug out an old Fender Strat that I bought 30 years ago and it has a similar problem - bottom 2 strings out of tune (on the sharp side) when you fret them. It's been stored in various bedrooms and lofts for the last 30 years in its original Fender case. There seems to be a theme emerging here, but in this case the Strat has 30-year-old strings on it - could the old strings explain the problem?

Are you pressing too hard when you fret?

Normally, I find it's the thinner strings that give me problems when I fret too hard though.

I'm beginning to wonder about that. If I apply the lightest possible pressure, very close to the fret, the bottom 2 strings will be in tune up to the 7th fret. At the 7th and above even the lightest touch is slightly sharp (and seems to get worse the harder I pick the string with my right hand). Maybe my touch is a little heavy, and I just need heavier strings on the Strat, but things definitely seem out when I get higher up the neck.

The Yamaha is definitely a problem, as the guy in Charlie Chandlers couldn't keep it in tune either.

stevebrum · September 2014

Selling your 30 year old Strat would allow you to buy a new decent quality acoustic and a newer American Strat (probably).

Is that an option for you?

itm · September 2014

stevebrum said:

Selling your 30 year old Strat would allow you to buy a new decent quality acoustic and a newer American Strat (probably).

Is that an option for you?

That thought did cross my mind! I don't think mine would fetch much - it's a 1981 (USA) model with the 3-bolt neck which I don't think was very highly regarded. I suspect that I'd be lucky to fund a new Strat plus a worthwhile acoustic from the proceeds.

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