Brass bridge pins?

Tannin · March 2022

One of my guitars plays beautifully fingerpicking, but doesn't cope well with being strummed unless I'm really, really gentle. Similarly, while it has a wonderfully responsive low end and middle, to my ear the plain strings are a bit harsh and shouty. It has a very thin, lightly braced Englemann Spruce top and I sometimes wonder if it isn't a bit too light for my (admittedly heavy-handed) right hand technique.

So it occurs to me that doing something to modestly increase the weight of the top (and thus make the system slightly less hair-trigger responsive) might give me a better tone - tame those treble notes a fraction without taking away too much of the wonderful rich bass.

Any thoughts?

Mellish · March 2022

Well brass pins will put weight on the top, that's for sure, but they'll brighten the tone. Whether you can live with that depends on you. Martin Luxe are metal pins that don't add a bright tone but they're expensive. But to keep the bass and calm the trebles? I use ebony pins for that

TheMadMick · March 2022

If you don't have them already, try rosewood or ebony. They seem to mellow the tone and they are for a few quid of flew bay.

Tannin · March 2022

Thanks lads!

The current pins are ebony. Not sure that I want to brighten the tone. The Martin Luxe pins sound interesting ... but at $230 AUD a set? Ouch! The correct answer is probably "Improve my technique and lean to play with a lighter touch".

(But if I'm looking for an excuse, I can always say that I could try the pins on several different guitars to get my money's worth.)

bertie · March 2022

I thought "snake oil" - but............. Im currently watching this........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUg1KmnblNE

best comparison is around 9.00 mins - not sure about volume but to my ears the "metal pins" sound much zingier/brighter on the lower strings, but "fuller" ? certainly not warm or mellow

Mellish · March 2022

The Martin Luxe pins (I got a set cheap off a mate) wear very well. If they suit, you'll never need to buy pins again. What do they do to the sound? Well, to *my* ear, they beef it up - the exact opposite of a thin sound. Now whether *that* and the longevity is worth the expense, I'm not sure

Tannin · March 2022

Cheers lads. That looks like an informative video, Bertie. I'll watch the whole thing with interest a bit later when the household is awake. Volume is a non-issue for me, it's all about tone and dynamics. First impression is that they aren't going to be a good answer. But I'll watch and ponder.

@Mellish, I didn't know you could wear a bridge pin out! In 50 years of playing acoustics (admittedly with a 25-year hardly-any-playing holiday in the middle) I've broken one or two and lost a couple, but never worn one out. In reality, the expense is a small fraction of what a decent guitar costs. I'll investigate a bit further when the household wakes up.

Tannin · March 2022

I just won a prize for my observation skills. The current pins are white, presumably plastic. Two of my other guitars have ebony pins, this one has white ones. I remember the chap who made it telling me that the original buyer had been very particular about wanting a certain shape of bridge (small, rectangular, pyramid bridge like an old Martin) and a certain choice of bridge pins with dots on them. I was remembering white dots on black pins, they are of course black dots on white pins. I've only owned it for six months and played it every day.

Dubbgh .... someone hand me my pipe and slippers and wipe the drool off my chin, I'm officially past it.

BigPaulie · March 2022

bertie said:

I thought "snake oil" - but............. Im currently watching this........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUg1KmnblNE

best comparison is around 9.00 mins - not sure about volume but to my ears the "metal pins" sound much zingier/brighter on the lower strings, but "fuller" ? certainly not warm or mellow

Sorry, Bertie. I'm not buying it.

I went to 9:00 and thought "that is indeed a noticeable difference" until I realised it was actually 2 different guitars Pete was playing. On that basis I'm unable to attribute the differences in sound, although fairly significant, to the pins alone.

Every time someone comes on here looking for advice on acoustics, the default answer is always "try before you buy" on account of the differences between each piece, even of "identical" spec. Therefore the tonal differences between those two sound samples could be down to multiple factors, bridge pins included.

Mellish · March 2022

@Tannin ; - when I mentioned pin wear I had in mind their slots. They always seem to get chewed up with me. That doesn't seem to happen with the Luxe pins. Mind you, at that price, it shouldn't!

Tannin · March 2022

Given my just-demonstrated powers of observation, you could probably excavate a medium-size coal mine in my bridge pin slots before I'd notice.

Tannin · March 2022

BigPaulie said:

bertie said:

I thought "snake oil" - but............. Im currently watching this........

Sorry, Bertie. I'm not buying it.

But they measured a difference. It wasn't completely scientific, but it was a real measured difference in volume.

Ahem ... Did anyone notice the actual numbers? 89.7 v 90.3 (unit not mentioned but presumably dBA). 0.5 dBA. That's a much smaller difference than an average person can hear when listening carefully for it, let alone actually notice, and smaller even than what most trained musicians can hear. The conventional wisdom is that at typical levels an average person will notice 6 dBA and can hear 3dBA if paying careful attention. A trained ear is said to be abut twice as good. But at any sensible volume (e.g., the sort of volume an acoustic guitar achieves), no-one can hear 0.5 dBA. (Not even a trained musician.(

In short, the volume change claim is hogwash. Put it in the same circular file you used for Taylor's hilarious "better intonation because V-brace" claim.

So (a) It doesn't make any detectable difference to volume, and (b) I don't care about volume anyway.

That leaves tone - which I do care about, and which it does make a difference to. Yes @Bertie, different guitars, but we can hear a difference between the before-pin and after-pin sounds on the same guitar. (At least I reckon I can.) The question is this: what will that subtle change to a brighter, more attacking sound on a factory Martin strummed with a 1mm plectrum equate to when applied to my hand-built Mineur when fingerpicked? Will it sound better? Or worse? Or stay the same? I really don't know.

I might go silly tonight and order a few different sets of end pins to try out - ebony, bone, and those Martin things. Or I might not. The sensible thing to do is borrow the ebony pins out of my Cole Clark Angel next time I'm doing a few string changes and, if I like the sound, buy some like that. But I'm not very good at sensible.

ICBM · March 2022

I've done some careful comparisons by swapping just *some* of the pins on the same guitar with the same set of strings, so you have the others for reference - in various combinations of 3, with different orders of strings.

The conclusion I came to is that brass pins do definitely sound different, slightly brighter and 'zingier' - not in a nice way, for me - but the other types are indistinguishable.

bertie · March 2022

BigPaulie said:

bertie said:

I thought "snake oil" - but............. Im currently watching this........

best comparison is around 9.00 mins - not sure about volume but to my ears the "metal pins" sound much zingier/brighter on the lower strings, but "fuller" ? certainly not warm or mellow

Sorry, Bertie. I'm not buying it.

I went to 9:00 and thought "that is indeed a noticeable difference" until I realised it was actually 2 different guitars Pete was playing. On that basis I'm unable to attribute the differences in sound, although fairly significant, to the pins alone.

Every time someone comes on here looking for advice on acoustics, the default answer is always "try before you buy" on account of the differences between each piece, even of "identical" spec. Therefore the tonal differences between those two sound samples could be down to multiple factors, bridge pins included.

don't apologise to me - Im not "selling it", Ive always been extremely sceptical of bridge pin material affecting tone, but I just thought the one with the metal pins did sound different after changing the pins. and to be fair to "Danish Pete" he did say in the "summarization" at the end that there could be other factors and "do two acoustic guitars ever sound the same" even tho they're the same models........... but to my ears, pins or not - they did sound different - Im not buying them anyway,

Tannin · March 2022

Interesting, ICBM. Did your tests include the Martin ones?

Mellish · March 2022

The thing is, we're not all blessed with the same hearing, so there'll be disagreement over whether pin materials make a tonal difference

Mellish · March 2022

Although I've got the Martin Luxe pins, I rarely use them. I prefer Bob Colosi bone pins, mostly because I like the look

sev112 · March 2022

I understood that
10dB was twice the volume
6dB was approx 1.5 x volume
3 dB was 1.25 x volume

that’s probably a simplification of what was told me, and that was probably simplification

So 0.5dB is probably about 10% louder on the log scale.
I would guess one could sense / hear that ?

Tannin · March 2022

Ears work on a log scale, which is why we use a log scale measurement unit for sound. 0.5dBA is generally regarded as an inaudible difference. Some people claim to be able to detect it. Maybe so, maybe not. But you can bet London to a brick that the average punter in a wine bar won't detect 3 dBA, never mind 0,5.

Human ears are incredibly sensitive to frequency, and quite insensitive to volume.

Meanwhile, I have ordered a set of ebony bridge pins, which I don't need but it's good to have some spares, and they were $13, so say £6 - so who cares? And a set of brass bridge pins for $42 (about £20) just for the sake of trying them out.

Now I am about to order strings from a different supplier, and while they have the you-beaut Martin pins ther for $245 (which is too much for my blood), it turns out they also have a set of them in a not-so-popular colour for $169 AUD (£92). Should I get a set? Or forget about it?

(Answers in 10 words or less on a stamped, self-addressed envelope. The judges' decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into.)

Mellish · March 2022

I wouldn't say there's a volume increase to be had with the Luxe pins. If there is, it isn't much. Weight-wise not as heavy as brass I'd guess because I think they're an alloy of sorts. But £92...if I couldn't get a set for a lot less, I'd forget it

DavidR · March 2022

I have brass bridge pins on my Yamaha FG5 with Monels on because I think it sounds brighter and a little nicer than with bone or ebony pins.

That being said, tone is subjective. Plus one example from one player on one instrument does not a truth make!

Mellish · March 2022

The pins I've got that I am fond of are Antique Acoustic. Lovely little things and much tougher than normal plastic. What are they bakelite, something like that?

ICBM · March 2022

Tannin said:

Interesting, ICBM. Did your tests include the Martin ones?

No - just plastic and bone initially, then plastic, rosewood and brass. I didn't directly compare bone with either ebony or brass, but since I couldn't hear any difference between bone and plastic I didn't see a lot of point. Basically brass was the only one that was different.

I kept the bone ones... because they looked the nicest.

I also don't think weight makes much if any difference - the difference between even six brass and six plastic is tiny, and all the others are much closer. If you think it does, just blue-tack something of a similar weight to the bridge and see if you can tell.

Tannin · March 2022

Interesting. I got around to trying out the brass pins on the Mineur just now. Same strings, I just swapped the pins.

FOR:

* The treble strings definitely sound better: sweeter and more true. (That's with my heavy-handed RH technique.)

* Strummed sound is sweeter, more trebly, less boxy, less distorted. It is now more difficult to clip that very light spruce top and I don't have to be so very, very careful to strum lightly. (To be fair, it is a guitar designed for fingerpicking, so I'm outside the design parameters.)

AGAINST:

* I've lost some of that lovely bass growl. There is less bass, and what there is is less pleasing to the ear.

* It has more zing in general, not a lot, but enough to notice and I'm not sure I like that.

* Overall, there is a subtle loss of richness. I don't think it is as subtle a sound or as varied a dynamic as it was with the old pins.

I'll leave them on for a while and see how my ear adapts to them, and also give myself a chance to grow used to it and start playing to suit it.

I must admit, I'm a bit tempted to go silly and order a set of the Martin ones in the hope of getting most of the "for" features without any of the "against" ones, but let's not rush into that.

The weight difference, BTW, is 4 grams. That's probably not insignificant. I'm not sure that bluetack would work - wouldn't it need to be something reasonably rigid and non-absorbing? Wood, say, or metal rather than putty like damping substances. I have toyed with the idea of experimenting with clamps, but not actually tried it.

bertie · March 2022

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

Interesting, ICBM. Did your tests include the Martin ones?

I also don't think weight makes much if any difference - the difference between even six brass and six plastic is tiny, and all the others are much closer. If you think it does, just blue-tack something of a similar weight to the bridge and see if you can tell.

see to me, Id think any additional weight of the brass "could" actually have a detrimental effect on the sound board ? Possibly limiting vibration !??!?!

Im not stating it as opinion, just my thinking

Tannin · March 2022

No no, Bertie, absolutely right. Extra weight (holding all other factors equal) on any transducer (soundboard, speaker cone, microphone, etc.) changes the sound. In general, lighter = better, but only provided that the damping is able to cope with it. As the (e.g.) speaker cone gets lighter, it also clips more easily from a lower input signal. Equally, it responds better to a small signal. Making it heavier tends to smooth things out - exactly as throwing a sack of spuds in the boot makes some care ride better. (It is essentially the same physics.)

bertie · March 2022

Tannin said:

N exactly as throwing a sack of spuds in the boot makes some care ride better. (It is essentially the same physics.)

dont' get many FWD over there then

(f= front not four)

Tannin · March 2022

Ride better, not handle better.

My Subie is more comfortable with some weight in the back - they are not like that ex-factory but I have heavy-duty springs in it for off-road and outback use (because on a field trip I always have a lot of kit weighing it down). And practically every ute ever made is the same.

(Er .. I don't think you have utes in Blighty. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_(vehicle)

bertie · March 2022

ute = pickup truck?

we do

Tannin · March 2022

No, not a pickup truck. A ute is a passenger car chassis and body cut off just behind the driver's head, with a cargo tray on the back and (usually) uprated rear springs. A pickup truck is quite different.

bertie · March 2022

Tannin said:

No, not a pickup truck. A ute is a passenger car chassis and body cut off just behind the driver's head, with a cargo tray on the back and (usually) uprated rear springs. A pickup truck is quite different.

we (well me) just call em big pickups....................

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