Dreadnought strings and tuning

Amigo · January 2022

So, I tried something on my dreadnought, long-scale (25.4"). I am using D'Addario Lights, tuned to concert pitch. Hard-ish to play, tough on the fingers. Sound not very dreadnoughty, lacks oomph, bass lame. After coming across a discussion online I tried tuning the guitar one semitone lower. It came to life and the playing improved. I tried another semitone lower, now warm and resonant, across al the strings, and playing is a doddle. So one semitone significant improvement in tone and playability, a tone lower gives massive improvement in both. I love it now.

The trouble is that it now buzzes on strumming or picking with any vigour. Not much, but noticeable. So I am torn between checking low-tension strings (Newtone Heritage?) and stay with 12s in concert pitch, or go with 13s (Mediums) and tune a tone lower. Which of these, or any other option, will give me the same sound and feel as the 12s I have now tuned one tone lower? Or just adjust the relief and the bridge and stay with 12s tuned a tone lower? The less intrusive options I would try first.

ToneControl · January 2022

Amigo said:

So, I tried something on my dreadnought, long-scale (25.4"). I am using D'Addario Lights, tuned to concert pitch. Hard-ish to play, tough on the fingers. Sound not very dreadnoughty, lacks oomph, bass lame. After coming across a discussion online I tried tuning the guitar one semitone lower. It came to life and the playing improved. I tried another semitone lower, now warm and resonant, across al the strings, and playing is a doddle. So one semitone significant improvement in tone and playability, a tone lower gives massive improvement in both. I love it now.

The trouble is that it now buzzes on strumming or picking with any vigour. Not much, but noticeable. So I am torn between checking low-tension strings (Newtone Heritage?) and stay with 12s in concert pitch, or go with 13s (Mediums) and tune a tone lower. Which of these, or any other option, will give me the same sound and feel as the 12s I have now tuned one tone lower? Or just adjust the relief and the bridge and stay with 12s tuned a tone lower? The less intrusive options I would try first.

you just need to slacken the truss rod, then the neck relief will return
the alternative is to use the next string gauge up, which will be as tight as your original set, but lower in pitch - so probably not what you want

BillDL · January 2022

I tune one of my acoustics down a whole tone for the same reason as you discovered. I use Thomastik-Infeld Spectrum Bronze SB111 11-52 strings on it. They do buzz a tiny little bit when fingerpicked fairly hard, but I don't notice any buzzing with flatpick unless I do a Pete Townshend. I just like the warmth of the lower tuning on that particular guitar - an early 80s laminated body Yamaha =- and it's probably because I play softer on it because that style suits the warmth.

Tannin · January 2022

I wouldn't be selecting D'Addarios for your needs. I'd go directly to a quality low-tension string, and the one I'd choose would be Santa Cruz. Yes, they are bloody dear, but they are well and truly worth it. Whether you'd tune them to standard or a half-step down I'm not sure. Try them and see.

Next best choice would be something in a round core. I have Pyramids on my Mineur and they are excellent, but there are many other brands (several of which I have here on hand but haven't had a chance to try out yet). All else being equal, round cores are softer under the fingers, easier to bend, more responsive and dynamic, and more mellow/bassy rather than shrill/trebly. You do need to be a bit gentle with your right hand, they don't take well to being thrashed. (But that is going to be true of every solution, from tuning down to changing strings.)

Take care with adjusting your truss rod. Truss rods are not designed for (or much good at) adjusting your action overall - that is something you do with the nut and/or the saddle. The truss rod is there to adjust the curve in the neck. In general, you want the neck to be very nearly dead straight but have the tiniest upward bow in it. For a few quid, you can buy a tool to measure neck relief easily and consistently: having one of those takes all the guesswork out of it. The reason ToneControl mentions it is that significantly lower tension (via de-tuning or via low-tension strings) allows the neck to straighten, or even bow slightly backwards, and that may well be the reason you are getting buzzes. If in doubt, don't guess, measure. In the long run, it's much quicker and easier. And if you do adjust, just a tiny bit is all you need - say 1/8th of a turn at a time. Then tune the guitar and give it a little while to settle down before measuring and (if need be) adjusting again.

PS: I'm serious about those Santa Cruz strings, they are bloody magic.

ToneControl · January 2022

yes, 1/8 of a turn max
if you haven't adjusted a truss rod before, then read up and watch some you tube videos on this

Assuming the guitar was set up OK before you down-tuned
For most people who've adjusted neck relief before, the approach to assess neck relief would be:

tune back to normal pitch - look along the strings neck from the headstock for each string, observe the small curve
For each string in turn, hold down the string at the first fret with the left hand, hold down the string at the fret it meets the body (14th I assume for this guitar) with the little finger of your right hand, then tap the string around the 7th, 8th fret to see how much movement is possible before it taps onto the fret there. Get a feel for this.
slacked the strings, repeat 1 and 2, you should notice a small difference. slacken the truss rod 1/16 or 1/8 of a turn, and repeat 1 and 2. Now try playing the guitar again

Be aware that the bottom E string might seem too floppy, if so you can buy a single string one gauge up for that.
This is especially noticeable when you have light strings then drop tune the bottom string 2 semi tones (drop D I mean, or drop C for you)

Personally I use 11s
You are using 12s.
I checked with this tool: THE (WHICHEVER) GUITAR STRING-SET SELECTION PAGE (free.fr)
Roughly speaking, using 12s dropped 2 semi tones will give the same tension as 11s tuned normally

ICBM · January 2022

ToneControl said:

look along the strings neck from the headstock for each string, observe the small curve

Don't do this - it's useless at best and misleading at worst. It's very hard to focus properly on the whole string length, let alone accurately judge the curvature of the neck from it.

Assess the relief by holding the guitar in the playing position - this is important because the weight of the neck affects it - and fret a string (I find the G the best) at the first fret and at the first one over the body (15th on an acoustic usually) with your other hand. Look at the gap between the string and the 7th/8th frets. If the gap is about the same as the diameter of the top E string or half the diameter of the G string, it's about right. If it's much less than that - or no gap at all - the neck is too straight and you need to loosen the truss rod. If it's larger than the diameter of the G string it's too much and you need to tighten the truss rod.

This is also slightly complicated on an acoustic guitar by the fact that the bridge height is slightly affected by the string tension as well - higher tension pulls the top of the guitar up, lower lets it sink back down a little, which can cause buzzing even if the neck is adjusted correctly.

Tannin · January 2022

And if all that looking and making a judgement seems too hard (which it is!) simply buy a set of feeler gauges from a car parts shop. Cost a few quid. Benefit: measuring neck relief is falling off a log easy, and very accurate.

RickLucas · January 2022

432 Hz sounds good to me.

ICBM · January 2022

Tannin said:

And if all that looking and making a judgement seems too hard (which it is!) simply buy a set of feeler gauges from a car parts shop. Cost a few quid. Benefit: measuring neck relief is falling off a log easy, and very accurate.

It's even easier to hold a string down in two places with your left and right hands and look at the gap between it and the fret than it is to do that and hold a feeler gauge in your middle hand at the same time

.

I never use feeler gauges for relief - there's not really a lot of point, as the correct relief can vary for the particular guitar, and as long as it's in the range of roughly half-to-full-G-string diameter it's close enough that you need to assess the final adjustment by whether it rattles in the low positions or not.

(Yes, I know you can use a capo as your left hand

.)

ToneControl · January 2022

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

And if all that looking and making a judgement seems too hard (which it is!) simply buy a set of feeler gauges from a car parts shop. Cost a few quid. Benefit: measuring neck relief is falling off a log easy, and very accurate.

It's even easier to hold a string down in two places with your left and right hands and look at the gap between it and the fret than it is to do that and hold a feeler gauge in your middle hand at the same time .

I never use feeler gauges for relief - there's not really a lot of point, as the correct relief can vary for the particular guitar, and as long as it's in the range of roughly half-to-full-G-string diameter it's close enough that you need to assess the final adjustment by whether it rattles in the low positions or not.

(Yes, I know you can use a capo as your left hand .)

that's what I think too,
Also I suspect it's easier to make the wrong assessment with a feeler gauge
In the end, as you say, you sometimes can set a little more or a little less relief, depending on the quality of the neck

Lewy · January 2022

ICBM said:

I never use feeler gauges for relief - there's not really a lot of point, as the correct relief can vary for the particular guitar, and as long as it's in the range of roughly half-to-full-G-string diameter it's close enough that you need to assess the final adjustment by whether it rattles in the low positions or not.

I use feeler gauges for my Collings because that seems to be very sensitive to relief and a couple of thou " difference can make for a noticeably stiffer playing experience. Don't know why. Slightly longer scale length maybe? My Martin has more relief but is more forgiving. Which is just a well because it has a non adjustable T-Bar rod and so relief is what it is!

Amigo · January 2022

A 1/8 turn solved the problem, now a whole tone down and not buzzing. Happy days!

DavidR · February 2022

Lots of good advice already on thread.

From your OP, you describe finding a nice tone on some light strings by lowering them one tone across the set (so far so good) but then encountering buzzing when you strum ( not so good).

My initial reaction was that that wasn't too surprising. If you play loud, and strumming is towards the loud end of the technique spectrum, on slackened light strings, there's going to be a big oscillation of the strings and hence buzzing. Especially of the base strings.

Two ways to approach. 1.Raise your action. 2. Alter your strings.

If you alter your strings to a heavier set of D'Addario's you risk losing the lovely tone you've found, but to be honest I'd try that first.

The reason I'm saying that is that to alter your action as the first response might be to alter your guitar from a good set up. Not a problem if you intend to stick with the lowered Lights forever, but you probably won't. My guess is you're going to carry on experimenting.

But....if you are going to change the action...concentrate mainly on raising the saddle (cheap, easy, buy one or two off Amazon and set to right height by sanding down base. Maybe use opportunity to change material to e.g. bone) and nut (not so easy, more difficult to swap and a finer procedure. You'll probably need some specialist nut files, not something you'll want to do too often). Fiddling with the neck relief is much less likely to give you a solution IMHO if there was no problem before you detensioned the strings.

Third option? Put strings back to normal pitch and try a capo on first or second fret. The simplest of all options. This will give you some different tone but you might lose other aspects so might not be ideal.

Good Luck.

ToneControl · February 2022

DavidR said:

Lots of good advice already on thread.

From your OP, you describe finding a nice tone on some light strings by lowering them one tone across the set (so far so good) but then encountering buzzing when you strum ( not so good).

My initial reaction was that that wasn't too surprising. If you play loud, and strumming is towards the loud end of the technique spectrum, on slackened light strings, there's going to be a big oscillation of the strings and hence buzzing. Especially of the base strings.

Two ways to approach. 1.Raise your action. 2. Alter your strings.

If you alter your strings to a heavier set of D'Addario's you risk losing the lovely tone you've found, but to be honest I'd try that first.

The reason I'm saying that is that to alter your action as the first response might be to alter your guitar from a good set up. Not a problem if you intend to stick with the lowered Lights forever, but you probably won't. My guess is you're going to carry on experimenting.

But....if you are going to change the action...concentrate mainly on raising the saddle (cheap, easy, buy one or two off Amazon and set to right height by sanding down base. Maybe use opportunity to change material to e.g. bone) and nut (not so easy, more difficult to swap and a finer procedure. You'll probably need some specialist nut files, not something you'll want to do too often). Fiddling with the neck relief is much less likely to give you a solution IMHO if there was no problem before you detensioned the strings.

Third option? Put strings back to normal pitch and try a capo on first or second fret. The simplest of all options. This will give you some different tone but you might lose other aspects so might not be ideal.

Good Luck.

AFAIK if there was no problem before slackening the strings, then slackening the truss rod to restore the relief would be exactly the right thing to do. This is exactly what I'd do when changing gauges on a guitar

Slackening the strings reduces the pull on the neck, so without making an adjustment, the truss rod will pull the neck backwards, reducing the relief, which reduces the space available for open strings and cowboy chord strings to vibrate.

I think it is true that slacker strings vibrate more, but I'd say it won't be by very much just dropping them one tone, whereas the neck relief is such a small curve that the tension difference will be significant, I could imagine that making more difference to buzzy strings.

ICBM · February 2022

ToneControl said:

AFAIK if there was no problem before slackening the strings, then slackening the truss rod to restore the relief would be exactly the right thing to do. This is exactly what I'd do when changing gauges on a guitar

Slackening the strings reduces the pull on the neck, so without making an adjustment, the truss rod will pull the neck backwards, reducing the relief, which reduces the space available for open strings and cowboy chord strings to vibrate.

I think it is true that slacker strings vibrate more, but I'd say it won't be by very much just dropping them one tone, whereas the neck relief is such a small curve that the tension difference will be significant, I could imagine that making more difference to buzzy strings.

That's entirely true, but it's very often overlooked that on an acoustic, the height of the bridge is also noticeably affected by the string tension - the strings pull the bridge upwards as well as forwards as it tries to effectively rotate around the axis of the saddle top to straighten the strings. That's why you have to be careful when lowering a bridge saddle, not to take off quite as much as you think you need to if you measure the action height first. Lowering the saddle reduces the rotational force on the bridge and so the bridge relaxes down a little as well - usually about an extra quarter to third of the amount you take off.

Likewise, going down in string gauge has a similar effect, so you may need to adjust both the truss rod *and* the saddle height.

ToneControl · February 2022

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

AFAIK if there was no problem before slackening the strings, then slackening the truss rod to restore the relief would be exactly the right thing to do. This is exactly what I'd do when changing gauges on a guitar

Slackening the strings reduces the pull on the neck, so without making an adjustment, the truss rod will pull the neck backwards, reducing the relief, which reduces the space available for open strings and cowboy chord strings to vibrate.

I think it is true that slacker strings vibrate more, but I'd say it won't be by very much just dropping them one tone, whereas the neck relief is such a small curve that the tension difference will be significant, I could imagine that making more difference to buzzy strings.

That's entirely true, but it's very often overlooked that on an acoustic, the height of the bridge is also noticeably affected by the string tension - the strings pull the bridge upwards as well as forwards as it tries to effectively rotate around the axis of the saddle top to straighten the strings. That's why you have to be careful when lowering a bridge saddle, not to take off quite as much as you think you need to if you measure the action height first. Lowering the saddle reduces the rotational force on the bridge and so the bridge relaxes down a little as well - usually about an extra quarter to third of the amount you take off.

Likewise, going down in string gauge has a similar effect, so you may need to adjust both the truss rod *and* the saddle height.

Do you recommend trying veneer shims?

Amigo · February 2022

I took the guitar to the luthier, to make sure all is well, and after a bit more truss action all is well and nice, Mediums and tuned to D. Very happy!

BigPaulie · February 2022

Result!

How does the string tension feel with 13s at D compared to 12s at E?

Amigo · February 2022

Very different, and far more comfortable. 12s at E were firm, a real workout. But the biggest difference is that the 13s at D opened up the guitar, it is far far more resonant and full. The 12s at E, the lower strings sounded dull, not much life in them. Now it is really a completely different guitar.

ToneControl · February 2022

Amigo said:

Very different, and far more comfortable. 12s at E were firm, a real workout. But the biggest difference is that the 13s at D opened up the guitar, it is far far more resonant and full. The 12s at E, the lower strings sounded dull, not much life in them. Now it is really a completely different guitar.

few people realise how much effect these things can have.
I have a 27 inch scale baritone acoustic tuned D-D (rather than the more common B-B) and it sounds amazing.
Some guitars work better tuned down

Tannin · February 2022

Wow! Are talking a low D? 14 semitones below a guitar's low E?

I tune my baritone (635mm scale - 29 inches) to C, same as a cello.

ToneControl · February 2022

Tannin said:

Wow! Are talking a low D? 14 semitones below a guitar's low E?

I tune my baritone (635mm scale - 29 inches) to C, same as a cello.

heh
no, just a tone down from usual
I tune my 27 inch electrics the same

I do tune my 30 inch baritones to B-B

Tannin · February 2022

Ahh. Then you are the same as me - you like a bit of spring in the strings, not too flabby.

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Dreadnought strings and tuning

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