Playing vocal melodies with rhythmic chord tones like this guy

hollywoodrox · December 2021

I’ve been following this guy for a couple of years and had a patron subscription
I particularly like his Leppardized covers of 80s songs and wondered what is the best way to approach this ?

it seems like a mixture of guitar following vocal melody , rhythmic chord tones and bits of scales and double stops. How would someone go about trying to do this for their own choice of cover . Eg for example a Madonna song .

I can manage to sometimes use my ear to outline the vocals , but this guy even when he’s not following the exact vocal outline ,can imply the vocal line by this staccato picking between 2 or 3 strings , which gives it that characteristic leppardized feel I love . Is the secret to it finding closely grouped chord tones / arpeggios that work well against the vocal melody ,or mixing the vocal melody in with chord tones/arpeggios . I notice in some parts of songs he uses diads/double stops to thicken out a melody in a chorus . The guy is very clever at doing this . Is it something one could learn and where would one start .

Two of my fave ones below

https://youtu.be/PwnZhHO4Sus

https://youtu.be/hMrGOPKwSr0

Any suggestions how to start for someone with basic music theory knowledge
I’m currently practicing lots of different stuff too (slash ) but could possibly afford a coup,e of lessons in the new year when can sort my practice times out (I’ve recently switched to night practice but would sooner get up early for my main practice so I could enjoy stuff like this an hour or two at night )

thanks for any suggestions

best regards and seasons greetings Paul

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Staccato picking video 1 about 0:56
Video 2 straight in at the beginning and the verse

really like this . I do have the tabs so could analyse it if I knew what path to follow and what to look for . I suppose keyboard parts could play a part too

sweepy · December 2021

Died in your arms tonight is Cutting Crew btw

, great guitar on the original

hollywoodrox · December 2021

sweepy said:

Died in your arms tonight is Cutting Crew btw , great guitar on the original

Didn’t he pass away? So many 80s guys have , the outfield lost two as well

Roland · December 2021

He’s strumming partial chords, and adding melodic notes. There’s something similar in Summer of 69 where the guitar play a D chord on the top three strings, lifts his third finger from the 2nd fret on the E string to play E, replaces that finger, then uses his 4th finger on the 3rd fret of the E string to play the note G.

Roland · December 2021

Listen here at 0:50 https://youtu.be/eFjjO_lhf9c

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Thanks for your input Roland I hear what your saying at 0:50 although it is like you said more strummy with added or possibly suspended notes , but strummy instead of staccato picking which the leppardized treatment has ,that works so well with the combination of compression, chorus and delay . Bryan songs are ripe for this treatment given his producer on his 90s album

sev112 · December 2021

Don’t know the original guitar lines - is that what he is playing or are you saying this is an original piece of guitar music over the original ?

Sounds very similar to how Neal Schon plays for Journey

hollywoodrox · December 2021

I think I also need to pay attention to what the bass is doing in some songs ,in fact all the instruments . I’ve just had a quick experiment on a song and its great when you get a feel for the rhythm in the picking . Now all I need to do is work on my caged major and minor scales plus all the arpeggios /chord tones on the neck , I’m just hunting and searching at the moment . Certain songs lend theirselves well to it.

please I would welcome any more input on this style and how to tackle it .

meanwhile another example I love by a different guitarist in Finland on a Chaka Kahn song

This one does not have the staccato leppardized approach but I love it ,I think it would work well actually like that too,but is outstanding as it is

https://youtu.be/iBNTPMSPVEs

hollywoodrox · December 2021

sev112 said:

Don’t know the original guitar lines - is that what he is playing or are you saying this is an original piece of guitar music over the original ?

Sounds very similar to how Neal Schon plays for Journey

Ahh I like journey and Have the Escape album , yes , yes. The guy in these videos makes different guitar arrangements of the songs to play over the top, so does incorporate some elements of all instruments while playing with that Def Leppard kind of feel .

I really like it and it really gives some songs a great lift .

thanks for weighing in , I,ll check out some journey in a minute and see what neils doing

hollywoodrox · December 2021

I found this cover of a vocal melody of who’s crying now ,awesome job
But I would like to see that rhythmic staccato picking underneath it too, that would really make it pop

https://youtu.be/CDB3QTa_TDw

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Will have to put this on my list to work on , it would be great with that staccato picked rhythm outlining it It’s got to be in the chord tones /scale

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Savage garden - to the moon and back would be a great one to do like this too

Kebabkid · December 2021

It's typical of the AOR players like Schon, Dann Huff, Andy Timmons and Lukather and the Def Leppard guys are good at coming up with those parts.

I liked his arrangements - ta

CaseOfAce · December 2021

Sounds to me like he's using diads and triads and then adding sus 2 and 4s on top... following the chord changes of the song rather than the vocal melody?
So if it were me - work out the chords and then go from there..
I can definitely tell what you mean by that Def Leppard sound - those stacatto notes jumping out with that gain / chorus sound is very Phil Collen.

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Kebabkid said:

It's typical of the AOR players like Schon, Dann Huff, Andy Timmons and Lukather and the Def Leppard guys are good at coming up with those parts.

I liked his arrangements - ta

Hi ,thanks for that really appreciate your input ,
I love those players .

I just had a go at who’s crying now , well who’s crying now was playing in my head and I was playing along in that manner to it mainly by feel of pentatonic type shapes and an idea of the vocal melody and it worked , not as good as the original I posted but it’s a start the rhythmic feel was there , just need to work on note choices and finding all the chord tones /scales .

I think by alternating a bit of that rhythmic staccato , a bit of vocal melody ,and some double stop harmonies so it doesn’t get too repetitive ,it might be possible for me to do.

I really need to get my main morning practice back after waking up so I can work on this stuff for an hour each night along with caged /arpeggios etc .

been working on Slash stuff all year just getting up to speed on certain guns n roses parts of solos
It takes me so long these days , but I can say after a couple hundred days I’m playing stuff I never dreamed of . The hard stuff is now refining it ,cleaning it up at speed .

Working on this staccato ,vocal ,chord tone stuff covers etc will give me an alternate outlook too

hollywoodrox · December 2021

CaseOfAce said:

Sounds to me like he's using diads and triads and then adding sus 2 and 4s on top... following the chord changes of the song rather than the vocal melody?
So if it were me - work out the chords and then go from there..
I can definitely tell what you mean by that Def Leppard sound - those stacatto notes jumping out with that gain / chorus sound is very Phil Collen.

On the nose ,thank you,thank you thank you. That has really helped me especially the sus chords bit as I recall someone mentioning that .

I have currently been setting myself out some charts to learn all the triad chords along the neck
especially favouring the e b g and b g d string sets so I think that will be a good grounding for what I want to do .

Really appreciate your input. Thank you again it has been a huge help.

CaseOfAce · December 2021

First chorus of what he's doing above in Waiting on a Star...
nice combination of heavily muted single lines and power chords...

-----------------------------------------|----------------------------|-----------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------|----------------------------|-----------------------|----------------------------------------------------9-9-9-8-

-------------------------5-3------------|----------------------------|-----------------------|----------------------------------------------------8-8-8-8-

---------1-0------6----5-3------------|----8--------8--------8---|-8-------8--------8--|-8----------8--------8---8--------8--------8----8-8-8-8-

-1-3-1------3----6----3-1------------|-------6-------6----------|-----6-------6--------|-----8---------8-------------8--------8--------------------

--------------------4----------3-4-6---|-4-------4-------4--------|-------4-------4-----|----------6--------6-------------6--------6-----------------

Ab / C / Bb / G / Ab add 9 / Bb x 2 - and then end with an Ebsus 4 -> Eb triad...

notice that lovely Andy Summer's type Ab add 9 (heavily muted) staccato...

Nice.

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Thank you , Andy summers is great, his guitar on So lonely and regatta de blanc tracks are favourites too

EricTheWeary · December 2021

I was watching the recent Rick Beato interview with Tommy Emmanuel last night. I appreciate that this is a different thing but Tommy's stock in trade is doing guitar arrangements of vocal melodies. Certainly his number one tip would be learn the melody first. Once you can play that you can look at harmonies around it. Very interesting that he can add jazz harmony or percussive noise or fast fills but the basic vocal melody line is still clear in what he is playing. His number two tip would be timing - get the groove.
[ I should probably watch the video in the OP to see if this is at all the same thing!]

Edit: watching the first video and he is not doing what I thought you meant. Oh well. Tim Pierce is good on these kind of things if you follow his YT channel as his session career tended be about constructing parts.

hollywoodrox · December 2021

EricTheWeary said:

I was watching the recent Rick Beato interview with Tommy Emmanuel last night. I appreciate that this is a different thing but Tommy's stock in trade is doing guitar arrangements of vocal melodies. Certainly his number one tip would be learn the melody first. Once you can play that you can look at harmonies around it. Very interesting that he can add jazz harmony or percussive noise or fast fills but the basic vocal melody line is still clear in what he is playing. His number two tip would be timing - get the groove.
[ I should probably watch the video in the OP to see if this is at all the same thing!]

Edit: watching the first video and he is not doing what I thought you meant. Oh well. Tim Pierce is good on these kind of things if you follow his YT channel as his session career tended be about constructing parts.

Some of what you say applies ,there are bits where you can hear the melody . I was quite interested in your perspective as your lessons are quite impressive on YouTube . Thank you for your input it is gratefully received . I think the rhythm is quite important in this ,it sounds good with quick staccato picking

EricTheWeary · December 2021

hollywoodrox said:

EricTheWeary said:

I was watching the recent Rick Beato interview with Tommy Emmanuel last night. I appreciate that this is a different thing but Tommy's stock in trade is doing guitar arrangements of vocal melodies. Certainly his number one tip would be learn the melody first. Once you can play that you can look at harmonies around it. Very interesting that he can add jazz harmony or percussive noise or fast fills but the basic vocal melody line is still clear in what he is playing. His number two tip would be timing - get the groove.
[ I should probably watch the video in the OP to see if this is at all the same thing!]

Edit: watching the first video and he is not doing what I thought you meant. Oh well. Tim Pierce is good on these kind of things if you follow his YT channel as his session career tended be about constructing parts.

Some of what you say applies ,there are bits where you can hear the melody . I was quite interested in your perspective as your lessons are quite impressive on YouTube . Thank you for your input it is gratefully received . I think the rhythm is quite important in this ,it sounds good with quick staccato picking

I don’t think that’s me - based on previous posts I think you mean @Danny1969 ;

Roland · December 2021

hollywoodrox said:

... staccato picking which the leppardized treatment has ...

Left and right hand muting, plus suitable levels of overdrive and compression, should get you there.

hollywoodrox · December 2021

EricTheWeary said:

hollywoodrox said:

EricTheWeary said:

I was watching the recent Rick Beato interview with Tommy Emmanuel last night. I appreciate that this is a different thing but Tommy's stock in trade is doing guitar arrangements of vocal melodies. Certainly his number one tip would be learn the melody first. Once you can play that you can look at harmonies around it. Very interesting that he can add jazz harmony or percussive noise or fast fills but the basic vocal melody line is still clear in what he is playing. His number two tip would be timing - get the groove.
[ I should probably watch the video in the OP to see if this is at all the same thing!]

Edit: watching the first video and he is not doing what I thought you meant. Oh well. Tim Pierce is good on these kind of things if you follow his YT channel as his session career tended be about constructing parts.

Some of what you say applies ,there are bits where you can hear the melody . I was quite interested in your perspective as your lessons are quite impressive on YouTube . Thank you for your input it is gratefully received . I think the rhythm is quite important in this ,it sounds good with quick staccato picking

I don’t think that’s me - based on previous posts I think you mean @Danny1969 ;

Ahh , I thought it was you ,it’s somebody with some cool glasses

hollywoodrox · December 2021

Yes , I’m more looking for theoretical guidelines to emulate the passages he plays ,but you are indeed right , I do use a comp. for that stuff plus chorus and delay for this kinda stuff .

I find the two middle strings (D & G) really good for getting the rhythm in the picking as you have a root that’s easy to find with all the chord tones 3rd 5th plus the 4th and 7th handy

it’s very clever how sometimes he gets certain notes to fall in with the vocal melody

bwm5150 · April 2022

I follow the chords and try to pick out new melodies that compliment what's already there. I just experiment a lot with it and decide on the parts that I think sound the best. I think naturally the parts that work best are one that best compliment the main melodies but not always. Some songs are easier than others to add too and there's some where I couldn't add that much so I mimicked a keyboard part or whatever else was there. Thanks for sharing and the kind words.

digitalkettle · April 2022

bwm5150 said:

I follow the chords and try to pick out new melodies that compliment what's already there. I just experiment a lot with it and decide on the parts that I think sound the best. I think naturally the parts that work best are one that best compliment the main melodies but not always. Some songs are easier than others to add too and there's some where I couldn't add that much so I mimicked a keyboard part or whatever else was there. Thanks for sharing and the kind words.

Welcome!

hollywoodrox · April 2022

bwm5150 said:

I follow the chords and try to pick out new melodies that compliment what's already there. I just experiment a lot with it and decide on the parts that I think sound the best. I think naturally the parts that work best are one that best compliment the main melodies but not always. Some songs are easier than others to add too and there's some where I couldn't add that much so I mimicked a keyboard part or whatever else was there. Thanks for sharing and the kind words.

Wow Hi Ben , I’m getting a bit better at this now ,not up to your standard but I find it a most enjoyable pursuit and hope to add the technique to original stuff too . So pleased to see you on this forum

bwm5150 · April 2022

hollywoodrox said:

bwm5150 said:

I follow the chords and try to pick out new melodies that compliment what's already there. I just experiment a lot with it and decide on the parts that I think sound the best. I think naturally the parts that work best are one that best compliment the main melodies but not always. Some songs are easier than others to add too and there's some where I couldn't add that much so I mimicked a keyboard part or whatever else was there. Thanks for sharing and the kind words.

Wow Hi Ben , I’m getting a bit better at this now ,not up to your standard but I find it a most enjoyable pursuit and hope to add the technique to original stuff too . So pleased to see you on this forum

Hi, that's great! I've been thinking of doing a video on it because others have asked me about the approach and certain techniques. I think there's definitely method to it but maybe not as consciously on my part, but certainly I have learned things just through trial and error. You have mentioned about using the D & G strings which I agree is best for the basis (or bass) of these parts. I have found that anything I play in the lower register ends up having to double up with the bass otherwise it will clash.

Feel free to ask me about these things. A lot of what was said above rings true but I have seen other posts (on Facebook groups) about something I play where people have given the wrong answers, so I'm always eager to clarify things if that happens. Maybe I come across as not approachable haha, I hope not, but I'm always willing to help where I can.

Cheers

hollywoodrox · April 2022

bwm5150 said:

hollywoodrox said:

bwm5150 said:

I follow the chords and try to pick out new melodies that compliment what's already there. I just experiment a lot with it and decide on the parts that I think sound the best. I think naturally the parts that work best are one that best compliment the main melodies but not always. Some songs are easier than others to add too and there's some where I couldn't add that much so I mimicked a keyboard part or whatever else was there. Thanks for sharing and the kind words.

Wow Hi Ben , I’m getting a bit better at this now ,not up to your standard but I find it a most enjoyable pursuit and hope to add the technique to original stuff too . So pleased to see you on this forum

Hi, that's great! I've been thinking of doing a video on it because others have asked me about the approach and certain techniques. I think there's definitely method to it but maybe not as consciously on my part, but certainly I have learned things just through trial and error. You have mentioned about using the D & G strings which I agree is best for the basis (or bass) of these parts. I have found that anything I play in the lower register ends up having to double up with the bass otherwise it will clash.

Feel free to ask me about these things. A lot of what was said above rings true but I have seen other posts (on Facebook groups) about something I play where people have given the wrong answers, so I'm always eager to clarify things if that happens. Maybe I come across as not approachable haha, I hope not, but I'm always willing to help where I can.

Cheers

Ben you are an absolute Saint , I love your arrangements thank you for the offer of help
yes those D G & B strings are absolute magic for coming up with lovely little pieces , chord tones mixed with scales . Love the way it just flows when you play . The tone from that ME 50 is amazing too . You indeed have inspired me to start trying to create my own original music .

I think your stuff should be on the radio ,

Howdy, Stranger!

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Playing vocal melodies with rhythmic chord tones like this guy

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