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UNPLANNED DOWNTIME: 12th Oct 23:45

Bourgeois - holy crap

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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 3380
    BingMan said:
    I own a vintage D - age tone Adirondack / Madagascar rosewood and a country boy D - adi / mahogany.

    killer guitars.

    I also own 2 Collings and a Santa Cruz, but I gotta say the 2 bourgeois get all the play time

    The only thing that gives them a run for their money is my recently acquired Marklund D28… if you’ve never heard of Per Marklund check him out, incredible one man builder in the north of Sweden 
    Good to see Per's name mentioned here.

    I have one of his guitars, a 00-21S repro.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 12145
    The interesting thing was how our different playing styles suited different instruments, even though the Brooks weren't the most expensive of the ones we tried they suited my friend's playing perfectly. The one which suited us both equally was a spruce/Walnut Larrivee OM-03. Some of the high end UK style instruments, eg Lowden, sound awful in my hands.

    this, in buckets QED
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    bertie said:
    The interesting thing was how our different playing styles suited different instruments, even though the Brooks weren't the most expensive of the ones we tried they suited my friend's playing perfectly. The one which suited us both equally was a spruce/Walnut Larrivee OM-03. Some of the high end UK style instruments, eg Lowden, sound awful in my hands.

    this, in buckets QED
    So the answer is to go and play ALL THE GUITARS? :D 

    I don't disagree (at all). I know Lowden stay things don't really work for me. I used to really like Taylors and could still probably gig one quite happily but wouldn't buy one for home. Martins and old small mahogany things seem to be my happy place.
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 12145
    So the answer is to go and play ALL THE GUITARS? :D 




    you had to ASK ? =)
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • artiebearartiebear Frets: 810
    stickyfiddle said:
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    Dream Guitars is great. I am very tempted to repatriate that lovely Sobell Model 1 cocobolo they have there, even if Stefan's workshop is only 40 miles up the road from me. 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    bertie said:
    So the answer is to go and play ALL THE GUITARS? :D 



    you had to ASK ?
    Just checking!! 

    artiebear said:
    stickyfiddle said:
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    Dream Guitars is great. I am very tempted to repatriate that lovely Sobell Model 1 cocobolo they have there, even if Stefan's workshop is only 40 miles up the road from me. 
    Have you had any interaction with them before? 

    It's these two that have caught my eye..

    Braz/Adi Bourgeois:



    Madagascar/Adi Circa with a fantastic red shade in the back. 



    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • artiebearartiebear Frets: 810
    stickyfiddle said:
    bertie said:
    So the answer is to go and play ALL THE GUITARS? :D 



    you had to ASK ?
    Just checking!! 

    artiebear said:
    stickyfiddle said:
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    Dream Guitars is great. I am very tempted to repatriate that lovely Sobell Model 1 cocobolo they have there, even if Stefan's workshop is only 40 miles up the road from me. 
    Have you had any interaction with them before? 

    It's these two that have caught my eye..

    Braz/Adi Bourgeois:



    Madagascar/Adi Circa with a fantastic red shade in the back. 



    Only dealt with them while living in the States, but I would highly recommend their professional approach to any transaction. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    stickyfiddle said:
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    add Goodall guitars to your list
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    ToneControl said:
    stickyfiddle said:
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    add Goodall guitars to your list
    They look a bit fancy for my liking! 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • guitarjack66guitarjack66 Frets: 1397
    They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    guitarjack66 said:
    They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?
    Well at that end of the market I guess we’re not talking about a traditional cost+margin pricing model, and it’s more about pricing where the market will let you. 

    You absolutely do get some of the absolute best woods available, and small builders making things by hand and paying specific attention to tuning the bracing to get the top to resonate as well as possible, compared with someone like Martin or Taylor who basically make every guitar exactly the same. That of course doesn’t guarantee every guitar is better for you as a player. 

    And let’s not be under any illusion that your average pub punter would hear the difference… but a nice guitar is a lovely thing 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • guitarjack66guitarjack66 Frets: 1397
    stickyfiddle said:
    guitarjack66 said:
    They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?
    Well at that end of the market I guess we’re not talking about a traditional cost+margin pricing model, and it’s more about pricing where the market will let you. 

    You absolutely do get some of the absolute best woods available, and small builders making things by hand and paying specific attention to tuning the bracing to get the top to resonate as well as possible, compared with someone like Martin or Taylor who basically make every guitar exactly the same. That of course doesn’t guarantee every guitar is better for you as a player. 

    And let’s not be under any illusion that your average pub punter would hear the difference… but a nice guitar is a lovely thing 
    Oh,I agree. A nice guitar is like a favourite painting or piece of furniture and desirable to have and use. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

    https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html
    add Goodall guitars to your list
    They look a bit fancy for my liking! 
    surely not

    I started with a Taylor, didn't like it
    Then had a few Larrivee
    Next had 2 Bourgeois, and a Goodall they were a different league, 
    • Bourgeois OMC Sean Watkins signature - I think the Adirondack was too stiff for my fingerpicking
    • Bourgeois DS260 was too bright for me - walnut body I think
    I tried Martins, and they were a minimum of double the price for anything like the same sound quality and responsiveness

    You can sometimes find used Goodall and Bourgeois in the UK for lower prices than in the US, since few people know the brand names. James Goodall had a bigger workshop in Hawaii for a while, made a lot of Koa instruments, then downsized and moved back to California, with all the machines and tooling. Now it's just him and his son making them, supply/demand has pushed up new prices

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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    Yeah, no argument about overall quality, I've just never liked that look of exotic wood backs, wood binding, extra MOP etc. I can't not do that - a guitar has to appeal visually or I just can't be arsed. 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 12145
    guitarjack66 said:
    They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?
    tables

    1. Ikea  flat pack "laminate"  £100    -   works, and you can eat your dinner off it
    2. "quality  store"  £500  -  solid wood,  you can eat your dinner off it
    3. made by small maker  £3000 + -   solid wood , hand crafted,  you can eat your dinner off it
    4. bespoke made by top cabinet maker  £ ??   -  solid top quality wood, can eat your dinner of it 
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    bertie said:
    guitarjack66 said:
    They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?
    tables

    1. Ikea  flat pack "laminate"  £100    -   works, and you can eat your dinner off it
    2. "quality  store"  £500  -  solid wood,  you can eat your dinner off it
    3. made by small maker  £3000 + -   solid wood , hand crafted,  you can eat your dinner off it
    4. bespoke made by top cabinet maker  £ ??   -  solid top quality wood, can eat your dinner of it 
    I wouldn't assume £500 of dining table gets you solid wood these days..! 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 4394
    There is a law of diminishing returns. Roughly, each time you double your budget, you get half as much more. Past a certain point (let's say £1500 just to put a number on it, half that for an electric) there is little chance that anyone will notice a difference in the sound apart from you and a few other skilled musicians, and then only if you are looking for it. Do a proper blind test and even these experts will battle. 

    Nevertheless, the pleasure of playing a really fine instrument is real. It is more rewarding, and because it is more rewarding, you feel more confident and play better, which makes it more rewarding, and so on. Every guitarist should have at least one really fine instrument. (Some of us have several, which isn't necessary. But it's fun.) 

    @ToneControl makes a good point: some brands have become famous and charge a premium; there are lesser-known brands every bit as good which you can buy, especially on the used market, at a bit of a discount.

    Used single-luthier instruments can be a real bargain (unless the maker is really well-known). Used Martins and Gibsons are expensive everywhere. (Or they "hold their resale value well" - which phrase you employ depends on whether you are buying or selling.)  Used Larivees and Breedloves can be quite affordable here in Oz and in the UK, probably less so in the States where they are better-known. I keep hoping that someone will offer me a used Lakewood or Atkin or Brook for half what it's worth because no-one here has heard of them. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    edited April 2022
    Tannin said:
    There is a law of diminishing returns. Roughly, each time you double your budget, you get half as much more. Past a certain point (let's say £1500 just to put a number on it, half that for an electric) there is little chance that anyone will notice a difference in the sound apart from you and a few other skilled musicians, and then only if you are looking for it. Do a proper blind test and even these experts will battle. 

    Nevertheless, the pleasure of playing a really fine instrument is real. It is more rewarding, and because it is more rewarding, you feel more confident and play better, which makes it more rewarding, and so on. Every guitarist should have at least one really fine instrument. (Some of us have several, which isn't necessary. But it's fun.) 

    @ToneControl makes a good point: some brands have become famous and charge a premium; there are lesser-known brands every bit as good which you can buy, especially on the used market, at a bit of a discount.

    Used single-luthier instruments can be a real bargain (unless the maker is really well-known). Used Martins and Gibsons are expensive everywhere. (Or they "hold their resale value well" - which phrase you employ depends on whether you are buying or selling.)  Used Larivees and Breedloves can be quite affordable here in Oz and in the UK, probably less so in the States where they are better-known. I keep hoping that someone will offer me a used Lakewood or Atkin or Brook for half what it's worth because no-one here has heard of them. 
    I'd set the thresholds slightly higher, based on there being a real tangible difference when playing these:
    for new electrics about £1000-£1200. But there are far more challenges to this, some below £1k new are excellent 
    for new acoustics £2500-3000 - very rare to find anything stunning below £2k new for a long time. It's a lot harder to make an acoustic guitar well - generally speaking, CNC production lines don't create top-level acoustics. (NB: when lower wage countries learn how to build them, this will change)
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 4394
    ^ All of that makes sense, particularly the bit about thresholds - I did my thinking in AUD and mentally converted to GBP, but I didn't think to add in 20% VAT.
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 12145
    I wouldn't assume £500 of dining table gets you solid wood these days..
    you're right - £560 at Oak Furnitureland =)
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 4394
    Speaking of Breedlove, I just skipped an opportunity to buy this one: https://www.premierguitars.com.au/collections/acoustic/products/breedlove-journey-concert-ltd-sitka-brazilian-22-of-50-usa-2016

    It was about the same price as the guitar I did buy and I'd have liked to try the Breedlove before deciding, but it would have taken three days to drive to Sydney and back, so I just went with the other one. And no, I'm not buying two guitars in this price range this year. Just the same, I would have liked to try it.
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  • droflufdrofluf Frets: 3144
    stickyfiddle said:
    I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 
    @stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 
    Trading feedback thread:https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/172761/drofluf
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 12145
    edited April 2022
    drofluf said:
    I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 
    @stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 
    * looks *   ?  ?
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    Ahem. 

    Aged tone Mahogany Dread with Adirondack top. Basically “just” a D18 but made with as little compromise as possible and top tuned by Mr Bourgeois 

    Most importantly m, it’s undoubtedly one of the best guitars I’ve ever played and will be meeting me in our DC hotel just before we fly home from our current trip. 


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  • MellishMellish Frets: 945
    That looks a cool customer :).

    Nothing wrong with "just" a D-18 - a good, solid Dread, as you know :) 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 24852
    Exactly. My benchmark has always been a late-40s (I think) D18 that my first girlfriend’s dad had. I only played it once hit what a guitar. 

    This has a very similar vibe for a LOT less money!! 

    Not sure if it will usurp my HD28 or just complement it, but I’m happy with either option
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 3380
    edited May 2022
    Exactly. My benchmark has always been a late-40s (I think) D18 that my first girlfriend’s dad had. I only played it once hit what a guitar. 

    This has a very similar vibe for a LOT less money!! 

    Not sure if it will usurp my HD28 or just complement it, but I’m happy with either option
    Wow. Great work. 

    When you take the strings off (eventually) can you use your phone to take a picture of the neck joint at the body and below the fretboard.

    Their double bolt neck joint is one of the greatest modern innovations in guitars. 

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  • droflufdrofluf Frets: 3144
    bertie said:
    drofluf said:
    I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 
    @stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 
    * looks *   ?  ?
    Sorry senior moment forgot to post the link

    https://acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/13506/fs-bourgeois-adirondack-mahogany-om
    Trading feedback thread:https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/172761/drofluf
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