Parisienne Walkways - what key is it played on?

Rocker · August 2021

Phil Lynott & Gary Moore played on Parisienne Walkways. In what key did they play it? Thanks.

DrCornelius · August 2021

I've always thought it was A minor

viz · August 2021

DrCornelius said:

I've always thought it was A minor

Ja

sev112 · August 2021

But what mode ?

DrCornelius · August 2021

sev112 said:

But what mode ?

I will refer you to Viz as modes give me a nosebleed

viz · August 2021

Haha, just A minor with a major Dominant chord (E7 not Em7). It isn’t modal.

Bellycaster · August 2021

Just to be awkward, he does put in an A Major Chord at the end of verse one. On occasion he swaps the Bm7b5 for a B7 and the E7 for an EMaj.

sev112 · August 2021

You say not modal but the dominant note appears to be E - what does that mean modally ?

viz · August 2021

sev112 said:You say not modal but the dominant note appears to be E - what does that mean modally ?

The important thing is not the note E, but the tonality of the dominant chord. Is the tonality major or minor?

In pure Aeolian, the dominant chord is minor, so you would hear Em (or Em7)

But this is not modal music, it’s not Aeolian, it’s a bastardisation of it, where the dominant chord is majorized. It has a major 3rd in it. In this case, that chord is an E, and its major 3rd is a G#. (A Aeolian has the notes ABCDEFGA. Not G#). So on most chords that use it, you hear a G, but over the E chord, the G# is used. In the chords and also in the melody.

The G# in the E chord does something special. It makes the cadence from E back to Am very smooth. Because the G# is Am’s ‘leading note’, which sounds awkward and disharmonious in the context of A, being so close to it, so when the chord moves from E to Am, the relief is greater. Most minor pieces utilise the major dominant chord option because it’s so much smoother and makes the cadence so much more effective.

Santana’s Black Magic Woman is mostly a modal song - it’s in D and has the tell-tale minor dominant chord (mostly) and is a rare example of D Aeolian. So you hear the Am (or Am7) chord instead of A or A7. (Actually he’s a bit ambivolent. Sometimes he plays A, other times Am)

Bellycaster said:
Just to be awkward, he does put in an A Major Chord at the end of verse one. On occasion he swaps the Bm7b5 for a B7 and the E7 for an EMaj.

Just to be awkward, he does put in an A Major Chord at the end of verse one. - yep, indeed, that’s a secondary dominant to set up the next chord, which is the Dm - it’s as though it’s a V-i cadence, though it’s actually a Ib7-iv progression.

On occasion he swaps the Bm7b5 for a B7 - yep, the Bdim is diatonically “correct” within the key; when he uses the B7, it’s a secondary dominant to the E7 - it’s a II-V-i instead of a ii(dim)-V-i

and the E7 for an EMaj - yep, leaving the optional 7 off the Dominant makes it a dominant chord, not a dominant 7th chord.

greejn · August 2021

Trying to simplify things! Any song in Am like this basically uses the same chords as C major. Em is often changed to E7, stronger resolution to Am. So just alter one note, G to G sharp, when that chord arrives.

JanekLubanski · August 2021

My version from my little black rock song book goes Amin...Dmin7...Dmin7/G...CMaj7. F**k knows what mode it's in.

greejn · August 2021

Why not forget about modes and learn the arpeggios for each chord? It's kind of a rehash of Autumn Leaves anyway.

Bellycaster · August 2021

Thanks, I knew I'd get a decent theory explanation of that from you @viz ;

Just for clarity, I meant me being awkward rather than Mr Moore

PhilW1 · August 2021

JanekLubanski said:

. F**k knows what mode it's in.

I doubt Gaz knew either

viz · August 2021

greejn said:

Why not forget about modes and learn the arpeggios for each chord? It's kind of a rehash of Autumn Leaves anyway.

Yes - even more so is Still got the blues, as they both start on the 4 chord.

The earliest example of this progression I can think of is Vivaldi’s violin concerto in A minor, written in 1711 and his D minor oboe concerto, though I’m sure there are many many earlier examples. There are literally hundreds of examples of this progression as it’s basically just back-cycling round the circle of 5ths.

They all have the same feature, which is a melody repeated 3 or 4 times, each time a tone lower. It’s normally 3 times in the Autumn Leaves version, and 4 in the Parisienne Walkways version (as there’s one extra chord at the beginning and a bit more room for the melody).

Danny1969 · August 2021

I was going over some licks from Parisian with a young student. I said there's some great melancholy licks in this song, they sound quite moving against the chord structure. We spent about 15 minutes on the licks, working on the phrasing and vibrato so it sounded melancholy like the record, then he said

"So this melancholy guy, what band is he in ?"

jpfamps · August 2021

I've always considered it A minor, but utilizing the harmonic minor scale which has a G# rather than a G natural, thus the dominant chord is E7 rather than Em7.

mart · August 2021

Danny1969 said:

..
"So this melancholy guy, what band is he in ?"

Please tell me that you answered "smashing pumpkins".

viz · August 2021

jpfamps said:

I've always considered it A minor, but utilizing the harmonic minor scale which has a G# rather than a G natural, thus the dominant chord is E7 rather than Em7.

Exactly.

(I mean, he uses harmonic minor scale when the dominant chord is being played, not when other chords are in use. Which is what you mean, I know).

guitars4you · August 2021

greejn said:

Why not forget about modes and learn the arpeggios for each chord? It's kind of a rehash of Autumn Leaves anyway.

I play my own pseudo jazz variation of Autumn Leaves - Fine when playing melody/chords but come to a solo and I find it so hard to get Parisienne Walkways out of my mind and almost go there by default

Isn't Fly me the moon the same/similar chord sequence ?

viz · August 2021

guitars4you said:

greejn said:

Why not forget about modes and learn the arpeggios for each chord? It's kind of a rehash of Autumn Leaves anyway.

I play my own pseudo jazz variation of Autumn Leaves - Fine when playing melody/chords but come to a solo and I find it so hard to get Parisienne Walkways out of my mind and almost go there by default

Isn't Fly me the moon the same/similar chord sequence ?

Yep. Here is a (definitely non-complete!) list of progressions that follow the Parisienne Walkways format, that I've come across in my stumblings through music:

· Parisienne Walkways

· Blue Bossa

· I Will Survive

· Burn (the middle 8)

· Fly me to the Moon

· Lou Reed - Perfect Day

· Mike Mullen’s Space Overture

· Yngwie Malmsteen - Rising Force

· Pink Panther moat scene (theme 1)

· Britten’s Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra

· Vivaldi's Violin Concerto in Am, and also Oboe Concerto in Gm I think

And in the Still Got the Blues format (which starts on the iv chord, rather than the i chord):

· Still got the Blues

· Autumn Leaves

· Emporte Moi

· Europa

· Nordrach

· Y Volvere

· All the Things You Are

· the MASH theme tune

· Pink Panther moat scene (theme 2)

· Hello (Lionel Ritchie)

Cheers.

jpfamps · August 2021

viz said:

jpfamps said:

I've always considered it A minor, but utilizing the harmonic minor scale which has a G# rather than a G natural, thus the dominant chord is E7 rather than Em7.

Exactly.

(I mean, he uses harmonic minor scale when the dominant chord is being played, not when other chords are in use. Which is what you mean, I know).

Indeed.

I always assumed that the harmonic minor got it's name as it was employed to harmonize melodies, although of course there is a chicken and egg situation here.

viz · August 2021

jpfamps said:

viz said:

jpfamps said:

I've always considered it A minor, but utilizing the harmonic minor scale which has a G# rather than a G natural, thus the dominant chord is E7 rather than Em7.

Exactly.

(I mean, he uses harmonic minor scale when the dominant chord is being played, not when other chords are in use. Which is what you mean, I know).

Indeed.

I always assumed that the harmonic minor got it's name as it was employed to harmonize melodies, although of course there is a chicken and egg situation here.

Yep. basically:

They started with Aeolian, which had a minor 6th and minor 7th.

Then in Vivaldi's day they thought, hey if we stick slavishly to the minor 6th and minor 7th when harmonising the minor scale, it means that the dominant chord will be minor, which is fine, but it's a bit plain. A bit "modal", too Aeolian for our taste. Not very baroque. Why don't we just allow, in the harmony, for the Dominant chord to have a major 3rd? And we can invent a scale called harmonic minor, that raises that major 3rd over the Dominant (which happens to be the major 7th on the 1 chord). So the Harmonic minor scale will be like Aeolian but with a raised 7th, though of course we’ll all know that it’s to demonstrate the raised 3rd that’s used on the Dominant. We could also name the fifth mode of that scale, going from Dominant to Dominant with its raised 3rd, which we’d call Phrygian Dominant, but let's teach the Harmonic scale from Tonic to Tonic, even though it will never apply to the tonic chord in actual music. Then they said, OK but why don’t we just teach the Phrygian Dominant instead then? Seeing as that's how it's used? And they said, because we want the scale to apply to the key in use, not the key's Dominant chord. And if we taught Phrygian Dominant as a scale, I bet there'd be people would think that the root of that scale were the tonic of the key anyway! We'll just have to trust that people know that the harmonic minor isn't applicable when the tonic chord is being played.

Then they thought, Hey, let’s have another scale which will raise the 3rd on the Dominant, but will also raise the 2nd! Why? they asked. Because then, for whoever's playing the tune, the melody, we don't have to sound like that viking twat/genius Yngwie Malmsteen all the time, with his horrid 3-semitone leap between the 2nd and 3rd that you get with Phrygian Dominant. We could call it Melodic Minor, obviously. It would also run from tonic to tonic, so it would effectively raise the 6th and the 7th, but again, it will only be used when the dominant chord is playing, raising the 2nd and 3rd. And playing it Dominant to Dominant, we could call it Mixolydian b6, though Viz will probably come along in a few centuries and want to call it major-minor scale or something stupid like that. (And of course people will know that the reason the Harmonic Minor scale didn't also raise the 2nd, is because the 2nd isn't in the Harmony. It's absent from the chord. So that's why in Harmonic Minor (or Phrygian Dominant), the 2nd was still un-raised, as per Aeolian.)

Anyway, back to Melodic Minor - so in the Melodic Minor scale, we'll use the way up to demonstrate what happens when the Dominant chord is playing - in other words we'll raise the 6th and 7th, but we'll all know it's the 2nd and 3rd of whatever the dominant is - the 5th degree of the scale; and then for the way down, we'll use it to demonstrate the notes of the key - ie we'll demonstrate the notes when the Tonic chord is playing. So we'll return the 6th and 7th to their normal states. But then someone said, Yes but won't that make everyone think that classical musicians only play a raised 6th and 7th on the way up, and lower on the way down? and they said, No, they won't think that, you tosser. they'll know that on the way up it's meant to signify the notes that you play OVER THE DOMINANT CHORD, where it's the raised 2nd and 3rd, and on the way down we use it to show the notes that are played OVER THE TONIC CHORD, where it's the normal 6th and 7th. And they replied, I'm not so sure - I think jazz will be invented and the jazzers will say that classical musicians are all inflexible because they only play raised 6th and 7th on the way up! And they'll say, No, coz there are loads of examples in classical music that have examples of lowered 6th and 7th on the way UP whenever the tonic's playing, and RAISED on the way down, whenever the Dominant's playing!! So they won't think that. And they said, Oh yeah? Like what? And they said, Like the first 3 seconds of this, for example:

https://youtu.be/Gft1W6fy22k

sev112 · August 2021

viz said:

guitars4you said:

greejn said:

Why not forget about modes and learn the arpeggios for each chord? It's kind of a rehash of Autumn Leaves anyway.

I play my own pseudo jazz variation of Autumn Leaves - Fine when playing melody/chords but come to a solo and I find it so hard to get Parisienne Walkways out of my mind and almost go there by default

Isn't Fly me the moon the same/similar chord sequence ?

Yep. Here is a (definitely non-complete!) list of progressions that follow the Parisienne Walkways format, that I've come across in my stumblings through music:

·         Parisienne Walkways

·         Blue Bossa

·         I Will Survive

·         Burn (the middle 8)

·         Fly me to the Moon

·         Lou Reed - Perfect Day

·         Mike Mullen’s Space Overture

·         Yngwie Malmsteen - Rising Force

·         Pink Panther moat scene (theme 1)

·         Britten’s Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra
·         Vivaldi's Violin Concerto in Am, and also Oboe Concerto in Gm I think

And in the Still Got the Blues format (which starts on the iv chord, rather than the i chord):

·         Still got the Blues

·         Autumn Leaves

·         Emporte Moi

·         Europa

·         Nordrach

·         Y Volvere

·         All the Things You Are

·         the MASH theme tune

·         Pink Panther moat scene (theme 2)
·         Hello (Lionel Ritchie)

Cheers.

I’ll have to check later, but I think Classical Gas and Up the Junction have middle 8s that do too?

viz · August 2021

don't know either of them. Classical Gas doesn't appear to, though it is in Dorian though, which is nice. Up the Junction is in E major so no, I don't think it does either.

Edit sorry - I was whizzing through UTJ, it has a middle 8 earlier than I expected! It does go into minor, but it doesn't quite deploy that progression.

tanihhiavlt · August 2021

Since Parisienne Walkways begins with the melody of Blue Bossa, I figured it was to set the scene ... like a busker on the street playing it as Gary remembers Paris.

The song seems to be trapped in the melody as the character is trapped in his reverie. So of course the progressions will be similar

Blue Bossa uses melodic minor, Fly Me to the Moon uses Harmonic minor - the biggest similarity I hear is the descending melody lines at the start of both

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Parisienne Walkways - what key is it played on?

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