Pentatonic question

DesWalker · July 2021

Excluding all other considerations about the chord progression which sounds better over an E7 chord, E Minor or E Major Pentatonic ? Is one objectively better sounding than the other ?

What about over an E Major triad ?

Thanks for any replies.

CoffeeAndTV · July 2021

B minor over E7 is quite cool too. I think they all have their place, mix them up.

sev112 · July 2021

Blues or medieval classical music

kelpbeds · July 2021

The only prob with E major pent is that it doesn't contain the b7 which is in the chord. You could also use dominant pentatonic which sounds great 1,2,3,5,b7 (so you are substituting the 6 for the b7 basically) Or you could just add the b7 to the major pentatonic which would give you a Mixolydian scale but without the 4th degree.

viz · July 2021

Different sounds - both work. Is your piece in E, or in A or A minor, or something else?

DesWalker · July 2021

I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question. I understand a lot of theory btw.

Kelpbeds is asking the sort of questions I’m looking for... 6 vs b7 and indeed 2 and 3 vs b3 and 4.

Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

How do these two scales compare ? Isn’t the Minor Pent much brighter and is this important ? I’m starting to think it might be ...

viz · July 2021

DesWalker said:

I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question. I understand a lot of theory btw.

Ok. So if your E is in Dominant position, you really want to accentuate its 7th, so although E major penta “works”, it’s not very fruitful. So:

For blues:

- you could play an em penta because blues is comfortable with major/minor ambiguity.

-or bm penta because that gives you the 7,

-or c#m penta but that’s quite boring as it lacks the 7th again, but it does work. (That’s the same as E major penta)

- or f#minor penta, but same as c#m penta really in terms of its boringness.

- or obvs you could play the relative majors of the above - respectively G penta, E penta, D penta or A penta. All majors, and all with the same pros and cons as their respective minors.

For jazz:

You can play the bm penta / D penta as above, or just to be extra spicy you could play gm pentatonic (or Eb major penta) which takes getting used to but uses notes from the E altered scale.

For classical:

same as blues but not the em penta or G major penta.

——————-

if your E is in Tonic position and you’re playing something like the first chord in Purple Haze or whatever, then em penta or bm penta.

————

If your E is Subdominant, and the I chord is B - ie the E is the IV chord in a blues, then I’d stick with the bm penta, or maybe flip up to em penta but that can sound a bit clunky following the chord changes in a blues.

That is why my question was important, as I’m sure you know, as you understand theory. The theory is there to explain why and how the music works, in a certain context. Music theory doesn’t work without context. That’s just maths.

DesWalker said:

Isn’t the Minor Pent much brighter

No it’s less bright.

Roland · July 2021

DesWalker said:

... which sounds better over an E7 chord, E Minor or E Major Pentatonic ? Is one objectively better sounding than the other ?

Neither. For E7 the better fit is E mixolydian. However I feel that you’re asking the wrong question ...

DesWalker said:

I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question ...

... and that’s the point where it went wrong. The notes you play, their sequence and timing, is about conveying a feeling. Theory is about categorising what’s happened, not about what should have been played.

DesWalker · July 2021

I don’t understand how you can say the Minor Pent is less bright than the Major. Just look at the intervals.

viz · July 2021

DesWalker said:

I don’t understand how you can say the Minor Pent is less bright than the Major. Just look at the intervals.

Ok. Maybe we have different ideas of what bright means in musical terms. Nevertheless maybe you found the rest of my post helpful.

Roland · July 2021

Bright is probably the wrong word

viz · July 2021

Roland said:

Bright is probably the wrong word

Probably. Though it is quite an accepted and useful. It means things like lifted, raised, sharper, optimistic. Basically words that convey what “major” is about.

Whereas darker is associated with lowered, depressed, flatter, sadder, more minor.

But these are subjective terms used to describe frequencies, and this stuff is notoriously hard to write about on a forum!

DesWalker, maybe what’s confusing you is you’re looking at the fretted notes for each scale and seeing that the minor penta has lower notes, like-for-like, than the major penta.

But as I’m sure you know, those notes shouldn’t be compared like-for-like up the scale ladder. The minor 3rd in minor penta isn’t to be compared to the major 2nd in major penta, it’s to be compared against the major 3rd in major penta. The minor contains notes 1 m3 4 5 m7 8. And the major contains 1 M2 M3 5 M6 8. The minor penta doesn’t even contain a 2nd to be compared against the M2 in major penta.

So major penta is brighter, as it contains major intervals not minor intervals. And it fits over the ‘brighter’ major scale, not the minor scale.

DesWalker · July 2021

Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

A related question might be to ask if it is possible to play pure Lydian over a Mixolydian chord progression because it is two steps brighter. Five of the notes will match the chord tones with the other two notes rising above the chord tones. None will sit beneath the chords.

Will Lydian over Mixolydian chords sound better than Mixolydian over Lydian chords ?

viz · July 2021

kelpbeds said:

The only prob with E major pent is that it doesn't contain the b7 which is in the chord. You could also use dominant pentatonic which sounds great 1,2,3,5,b7 (so you are substituting the 6 for the b7 basically.

This is a great scale, it uses the dots on the fretboard, so playing all the dots on the B string gives you E dominant pentatonic. Which is nice.

viz · July 2021

DesWalker said:

Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

I think you must have written this without seeing my previous post. Hope that cleared it up for you.

Though you know what, brilliant musicians can make all kinds of wonderful music out of the 12 notes, so maybe you can make minor pentatonic sound brighter than major pentatonic - there are many happy minor pieces and many sad major pieces, plus we probably have a different idea of how music theory actually works. No worries, good banter. Happy to continue the chat.

DesWalker said:

A related question might be to ask if it is possible to play pure Lydian over a Mixolydian chord progression because it is two steps brighter. Five of the notes will match the chord tones with the other two notes rising above the chord tones. None will sit beneath the chords.

Will Lydian over Mixolydian chords sound better than Mixolydian over Lydian chords ?

Not recommended but for the most serious jazzers! The augmented 4th will not sit well with the perfect 4th.

DesWalker · July 2021

Hi viz,

Sorry missed your post.

Of course I agree with you when the full diatonic scales are compared. But we’re comparing Pentatonics and no matter how you cut it Minor Pent is much brighter than Major and I think that is very important. Think about it, or even better play it and listen....

Des

viz · July 2021

DesWalker said:

Hi viz,

Sorry missed your post.

Of course I agree with you when the full diatonic scales are compared. But we’re comparing Pentatonics and no matter how you cut it Minor Pent is much brighter than Major and I think that is very important. Think about it, or even better play it and listen....

Des

Ok lol thanks

DesWalker · July 2021

I totally agree that the Dominant Pent (9th arpeggio) is correct over Dominant chords. It’s got the chord tones and tritone.

But the Minor Pent is still brighter than the Dominant Pent. Maybe it’s not quite as correct to use the Minor Pent but maybe it’s even better....

DesWalker · July 2021

Viz,

I know you’re a theory nerd. So am I and I’ve been on a mega research binge based around modal brightness ideas applied to pentatonics.

I strongly believe different types of pentatonic are the key to understanding which scales are correct over diatonic and non-diatonic progressions like the Blues.

Personally I think a Major Pentatonic over a Dominant chord sounds garbage. The 6 sinks beneath the chord.

Des

HAL9000 · July 2021

DesWalker said:

Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

No they’re not; they’re a semitone higher. Whole different thing.

As for which pentatonic sounds better over a particular chord - surely better is subjective term. Depends on the context, the relationship between that chord and the key you’re in, what you’re hoping to achieve, etc. IMHO there is no definitive right answer.

danowens · August 2021

Over E7? F diminished, surely‽

ArchtopDave · August 2021

The answer to your original post is neither the Minor nor the Major Pentatonic is better as such. I assume that you're thinking about soloing over the E7 chord. Unfortunately, your first sentence is not to my mind valid since, unless you are playing a line entirely on it's own, then you're interacting with other instruments, and you're interacting with the chord sequence that you are playing over. Additionally if you are talking about a Blues Progression, then you have to accept that there are compromises to be made between Blues and Western Music Theory, since Blues did not develop within the framework of Western Music Theory.
Whether any particular scale is "correct" as per your post above can also be a matter of debate. Using particular scales, which provide an easy harmonic fit to the underlying chords to start with, provides a pathway on which to progress your understanding of playing, However, at the end of the day, it depends on how much dissonance you find acceptable, and what you'd like to achieve with your playing.

As Joe Pass once said "It doesn't matter what notes you play, it's how you resolve them that's important".

viz · August 2021

ArchtopDave said:

The answer to your original post is neither the Minor nor the Major Pentatonic is better as such. I assume that you're thinking about soloing over the E7 chord. Unfortunately, your first sentence is not to my mind valid since, unless you are playing a line entirely on it's own, then you're interacting with other instruments, and you're interacting with the chord sequence that you are playing over. Additionally if you are talking about a Blues Progression, then you have to accept that there are compromises to be made between Blues and Western Music Theory, since Blues did not develop within the framework of Western Music Theory.
Whether any particular scale is "correct" as per your post above can also be a matter of debate. Using particular scales, which provide an easy harmonic fit to the underlying chords to start with, provides a pathway on which to progress your understanding of playing, However, at the end of the day, it depends on how much dissonance you find acceptable, and what you'd like to achieve with your playing.

As Joe Pass once said "It doesn't matter what notes you play, it's how you resolve them that's important".

Absolutely!

https://youtu.be/meha_FCcHbo

ArchtopDave · August 2021

@viz I'm entirely in agreement with Jacob Collier (and others) that you can play any note over any chord. It has been a bit of a journey getting there, and I think, as I alluded to above, it does depend to a degree on what you wish to achieve as a player, and how much dissonance one likes. It's taking up guitar playing that has led me to delight in the more complex chords, and I love bits of dissonance. No surprise then that I have come to be interested in the jazzier end of music, and it's associated level of Music Theory brain pain!!

viz · August 2021

ArchtopDave said:

@viz I'm entirely in agreement with Jacob Collier (and others) that you can play any note over any chord. It has been a bit of a journey getting there, and I think, as I alluded to above, it does depend to a degree on what you wish to achieve as a player, and how much dissonance one likes. It's taking up guitar playing that has led me to delight in the more complex chords, and I love bits of dissonance. No surprise then that I have come to be interested in the jazzier end of music, and it's associated level of Music Theory brain pain!!

Exactly! There’s a good thing where Collier talks to various people of different musical levels and he demonstrates one note fitting every random chord that he plays. And the bloke he’s talking to is astonished

viz · August 2021

6:35

https://youtu.be/eRkgK4jfi6M

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