Minor 3rd, flattened 3rd, when did that change?

TheBigDipper · May 2021

stratman3142 said:

<snip>
Regarding minor scale intervals, the use of 3rd, minor 3rd or b3 are just different views of the same thing. As as analogy, one might describe a point in 3D space in terms of Cartesian or spherical coordinates. It's the same point in space, just two views of the same thing.

Of course. Aubergine or eggplant - it's still the same vegetable. But now some of us need to know two words for the same thing to communicate with someone else who only knows one of the words. And as for courgette or zucchini....

viz · May 2021

stratman3142 said:

Regarding minor scale intervals, the use of 3rd, minor 3rd or b3 are just different views of the same thing. As as analogy, one might describe a point in 3D space in terms of Cartesian or spherical coordinates. It's the same point in space, just two views of the same thing.

Good analogy

Brad · May 2021

stratman3142 said:

But I don't hear it as a major scale with those interval modifications. I hear it as a natural minor scale as a starting point. The interval formula is just neat convention to describe it.

I think that’s the problem... and I’d argue it’s either being explained in the wrong way or misinterpreted. IMO it just describes things for what they are, not necessarily instructions to do something.

Rather than seeing things as adjusted from the major scale, personally I look at them related to a given root and it just makes things more consistent, particularly with things that don’t fit neatly into maj/min tonality or where things change key a lot.

I’d be interested to know how would anyone describe a m7b5 chord?

sev112 · May 2021

I think this is related, because some are saying it depends on what the music feels/needs eg the minor scale etc, but might just be a side step like my earlier question about Dom7 was. Apologies

here goes anyway.

after 40 years of playing instruments and learning some theory along the way, and getting some grades, I still don’t know how to CORRECTLY determine from looking at a piece of sheet music whether it is in a major or minor key.

I think I might be able to make a guess : viz key signature with no flats or sharps, so CMaj or Amin. If I see lots of A notes at the beginning or ending of bars/phrases it might be Aminor, and if I see lots of C notes doing the same it might be CMajor. But I don’t KNOW.

I think this is important . Imagine I am busking playing my trumpet and a piano accordionist walks by and says “can I jam with you”, because he needs to play chords (while I am only playing single notes) do I say CMajor or Aminor, and does it matter a jot ? Or do I say “if you are feeling in a happy mood we’ll be in CMajor, but if you are feeling moody we’ll play in AMinor”?

ArchtopDave · May 2021

As is often the case with discussions like this, I agree with the comments made by @Brad. You do need to employ a certain amount of flexibility in applying Music Theory; I call it "Musical Mental Gymnastics". For example, A♯can be Bb, or Cbb - the same note, but described differently depending on it's context. It's the same with chords, group of chord tones can be given a number of names. I'm doing a very interesting little jazz course at the moment which is quite focussed on this kind of concept. As @Brad has mentioned the m7b5, a Dm7b5 chord can also be seen as a Fmin6 when needed.

Brad · May 2021

ArchtopDave said:

As @Brad has mentioned the m7b5, a Dm7b5 chord can also be seen as a Fmin6 when needed.

Or Bb9.

sev112 said:

I think this

after 40 years of playing instruments and learning some theory along the way, and getting some grades, I still don’t know how to CORRECTLY determine from looking at a piece of sheet music whether it is in a major or minor key.

I think I might be able to make a guess : viz key signature with no flats or sharps, so CMaj or Amin. If I see lots of A notes at the beginning or ending of bars/phrases it might be Aminor, and if I see lots of C notes doing the same it might be CMajor. But I don’t KNOW.

I think this is important . Imagine I am busking playing my trumpet and a piano accordionist walks by and says “can I jam with you”, because he needs to play chords (while I am only playing single notes) do I say CMajor or Aminor, and does it matter a jot ? Or do I say “if you are feeling in a happy mood we’ll be in CMajor, but if you are feeling moody we’ll play in AMinor”?

Yep that’s pretty much the rule of thumb. Looking at the end of a piece often helps too if things are a little ambiguous.

And I agree it is important. Your note choices and phrasing needs to tie in with the harmony. Despite being the same pool of notes they have different implications depending on the context.

viz · May 2021

sev112 said:

I think this is related, because some are saying it depends on what the music feels/needs eg the minor scale etc, but might just be a side step like my earlier question about Dom7 was. Apologies

here goes anyway.

after 40 years of playing instruments and learning some theory along the way, and getting some grades, I still don’t know how to CORRECTLY determine from looking at a piece of sheet music whether it is in a major or minor key.

I think I might be able to make a guess : viz key signature with no flats or sharps, so CMaj or Amin. If I see lots of A notes at the beginning or ending of bars/phrases it might be Aminor, and if I see lots of C notes doing the same it might be CMajor. But I don’t KNOW.

I think this is important . Imagine I am busking playing my trumpet and a piano accordionist walks by and says “can I jam with you”, because he needs to play chords (while I am only playing single notes) do I say CMajor or Aminor, and does it matter a jot ? Or do I say “if you are feeling in a happy mood we’ll be in CMajor, but if you are feeling moody we’ll play in AMinor”?

Fantastic question, and brilliant segue from the dom7 and harmonic minor discussion!

The very raison d’être for harmonic minor is (was originally) to describe a MAJOR 3rd on the dominant chord of a minor key, where otherwise it would be a minor v chord. So in A minor, the dominant can be E or E7 (not Em) in the harmony, with a major 3rd, which is the G#. That’s why it’s called harmonic minor.

(In classical music harmonic minor is almost never used on the tonic, it’s only used in 5th mode over the Dominant. So the scale would have a m2, a M3, and a m6 and m7. The 4th and 5th are perfect as normal). The scale is called Phrygian Dominant (for obvious reasons) and it’s the scale that Yngwie plays all the time.

So, if the piece were A minor, you’d almost certainly see G#s spattered throughout the piece, over a chord that you’d find was a V or V7 chord.

If it were in C major, it would be quite weird to see G# notes. (There might be Ab occasionally if it’s modulated to C minor but that’s by-the-by)

Philtre · May 2021

Brad said:

ArchtopDave said:

As @Brad has mentioned the m7b5, a Dm7b5 chord can also be seen as a Fmin6 when needed.

Or Bb9.

Not on its own. It could be if there was a Bb played (or implied) in the bass part, say.

Brad · May 2021

Philtre said:

Brad said:

ArchtopDave said:

As @Brad has mentioned the m7b5, a Dm7b5 chord can also be seen as a Fmin6 when needed.

Or Bb9.
Not on its own. It could be if there was a Bb played (or implied) in the bass part, say.

Hmmm I get what you’re saying, slightly different situations granted. @ArchtopDave saying how Dm7b5 is an inversion of Fm6 whereas I’m saying it’s the upper part of a Bb9, so I guess saying it’s part of a Bb9 would’ve been clearer.

But you could say the same for any number of chords... on its own is it Dm7b5 or Fm6? Root, implied root or harmonic context would be needed in any case. Anyway, I fear it’s veering off topic about how to name 3rds

Philtre · May 2021

Brad said:

Philtre said:

Brad said:

ArchtopDave said:

As @Brad has mentioned the m7b5, a Dm7b5 chord can also be seen as a Fmin6 when needed.

Or Bb9.
Not on its own. It could be if there was a Bb played (or implied) in the bass part, say.

Hmmm I get what you’re saying, slightly different situations granted. @ArchtopDave saying how Dm7b5 is an inversion of Fm6 whereas I’m saying it’s the upper part of a Bb9, so I guess saying it’s part of a Bb9 would’ve been clearer.

But you could say the same for any number of chords... on its own is it Dm7b5 or Fm6? Root, implied root or harmonic context would be needed in any case. Anyway, I fear it’s veering off topic about how to name 3rds

Agreed.

As for veering off topic...that reminds me...

Tabs. I fucking hate tabs! How on earth are you supposed to tell the note lengths in tab? You can't! What's wrong with learning to fucking read music!!!???? Lazy fucks.

/rant

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Minor 3rd, flattened 3rd, when did that change?

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