It's the age old question - my solos suck! How do I improve?

DesWalker · March 2021

axisus said:

The learning the fretboard thing - surely that's only really useful if you know what you are playing over in terms of chords? I have to admit I have a poor ear for sound, I never know what I am listening to just by the sound of it. No chord chart and I would be lost!

It sounds like you’re looking for an excuse not to bother.

Are you really okay with fretting a note and not having a clue what note you’re playing !? We’re not talking unnecessary stuff here, we’re talking “if you don’t know this then what’s the point in playing at all” type stuff.

Anyway, you will have to make your own mind up if you are willing to put in a little effort to learn the basic mechanics of your instrument. Good luck whatever you decide.

MrTee · March 2021

Howard Morgen on Truefire has a great series on fretboard knowledge. Highly recommended, pennies were dropping all over the place for me, after years of ignoring theory etc

https://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/fingerboard-breakthrough/c210

Don't let the 'jazz' category put you off.

axisus · March 2021

DesWalker said:

Are you really okay with fretting a note and not having a clue what note you’re playing !? We’re not talking unnecessary stuff here, we’re talking “if you don’t know this then what’s the point in playing at all” type stuff.

sorry but that's just rubbish!

Danny1969 · March 2021

I was chatting about learning the fretboard with one of my students tonight and he asked how quickly I learnt all the notes and I said I don't actually remember spending much time doing it, it just seemed obvious it had to be learnt first and so I got on with it.

Looking back when I first picked up a guitar there was no tab so you had to learn from sheet music. I remember getting the sheet music for Apache. It had been written in Gm for some reason but I jotted the notes down and worked out where those notes were on the guitar and that's how I progressed forward. Because that was the only way forward with no guitar teacher, no tab, no internet etc it was a simple job to get done first with no distractions.

These days there are too many distractions. Why bother learning the fretboard when Johnny You-tuber can teach you how to play Plug in Baby or whatever just using tab and telling you what fret numbers to use ? The truth is though, that's an easy way forward but it actually hampers you from learning properly.

The Pentatonic scale is another thing. I never started with the pentatonic scale, we weren't taught it at school we were just taught the major and minor scale. For some reason now with guitar the pentatonic scale is thrust upon every beginner and they stay solo'ing in the same box positions playing the same tired licks, and someone has to break them out and show them how to play all over the neck.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is if they ignored tab, learnt the notes all over the neck and ignored the pentatonic blues box they would be playing all over the neck and staying in key a lot sooner.

And I remember when this was all fields and you could go to the cinema and get 20 fags and a roast dinner for 2 bob etc

notsopro · March 2021

Danny1969 said:

I was chatting about learning the fretboard with one of my students tonight and he asked how quickly I learnt all the notes and I said I don't actually remember spending much time doing it, it just seemed obvious it had to be learnt first and so I got on with it.

Looking back when I first picked up a guitar there was no tab so you had to learn from sheet music. I remember getting the sheet music for Apache. It had been written in Gm for some reason but I jotted the notes down and worked out where those notes were on the guitar and that's how I progressed forward. Because that was the only way forward with no guitar teacher, no tab, no internet etc it was a simple job to get done first with no distractions.

These days there are too many distractions. Why bother learning the fretboard when Johnny You-tuber can teach you how to play Plug in Baby or whatever just using tab and telling you what fret numbers to use ? The truth is though, that's an easy way forward but it actually hampers you from learning properly.

The Pentatonic scale is another thing. I never started with the pentatonic scale, we weren't taught it at school we were just taught the major and minor scale. For some reason now with guitar the pentatonic scale is thrust upon every beginner and they stay solo'ing in the same box positions playing the same tired licks, and someone has to break them out and show them how to play all over the neck.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is if they ignored tab, learnt the notes all over the neck and ignored the pentatonic blues box they would be playing all over the neck and staying in key a lot sooner.

And I remember when this was all fields and you could go to the cinema and get 20 fags and a roast dinner for 2 bob etc

I honestly think this could be one of the most useful things someone looking to improve could learn. I've been playing properly for a little over a year (had spells previously where I'd mess around for a few months, then leave it for years). This is something I've kind of figured out by myself after spending the last couple of months asking myself why whenever I improvise it always sounds the same. Well the answer was I was playing the same scale, in the same 'box' in different orders.

After some online reading exactly as Danny has stated, I started trying to learn the notes by string, now I've started mixing in learning different chromatic scales in different positions, and it's opened up a whole new world of possibilities, and I wish I'd thought about it this way sooner rather than using the classic 'this scale in this position works really well over these chords'.

My view is by having the knowledge of the entire fretboard doesn't mean you always have to use it, but it means it's always there if you want to use it.

axisus · March 2021

@Danny1969 You have convinced me to have a proper attempt to learn all the notes!

Getting started at the weekend ...

Lewy · March 2021

DesWalker said:

Are you really okay with fretting a note and not having a clue what note you’re playing !? We’re not talking unnecessary stuff here, we’re talking “if you don’t know this then what’s the point in playing at all” type stuff.

That seems to be somewhat lacking in perspective. If you removed from history the contribution of musicians who didn't know the notes they were playing, on the premise that if you don't 'then what's the point in playing at all?' you can basically wipe out most popular music as we know it.

The point is that if you're in a rut, or not meeting your creative goals as is the case with the OP, or you want to better understand why the things that sound good to you do so, this stuff is valuable, but to characterise it as table stakes is demonstrably wrong.

John_A · March 2021

Roland said:

AK99 said:

For me the takeaway from that was to ease off worrying about the technical side of the playing a bit, and try to figure out how to learn to make what I'm trying to play more 'musical' and engaging, if that makes sense.

Total sense.

Absolutely - I had a guitar teacher years ago, and proudly showed him the George Lynch lick I'd worked on for ages, his response "very impressive but you could have learnt 50 George Harrison licks in the same time"

AK99 · March 2021

I went back to the Peter Green/Need your Love solo and asked my eldest son, a music graduate, to have a listen and explain why it is so engaging.

He said some of the things he noticed were that PG leaves a lot of the runs 'unresolved', or alternatively, delays the resolution until later than you would expect, which creates the feelings of expectation and building tension that I had actually noticed. The other was that the song is written in 6/8 time, but the solo jumps back and forth between 6/8 and 3/4. Why, and what that results in, I still have no idea whatsoever

personalnadir · March 2021

I’ve been trying to learn the fret board for a while, haven’t really mastered it yet.

Current approaches:
- hand drawn diagrams of all the notes on the fret board I refer to while improvising
- practicing playing a single note on all locations on the board: currently just doing all the Fs and Cs
- learning the major and minor triads. That way when I fret a chord I know all the notes under my fingers

despite all of the above i could not tell you what a note on the fretboard is without pausing to work it out. Do feel I’m slowly getting faster at that though

on the original subject: limiting myself to playing a single string, and allowing myself to hit the same note repeatedly have both helped the musicality of my playing. It is still however meandering and lacks intentionality

sev112 · March 2021

I learned 2 things (among many others) that worked really well for me

know where the Minor 3, Major 3 are in relation to a fretted note - it’s either on same string or next string. If you know that you know where the 4th interval is. You know where the 5th interval is because that’s the power chord position, and you know where the second is because it’s just 2 frets up. You know where the octave is because it’s 2 frets up and 2 strings across .
If you know you have a maj 7 or min 7 then it’s 1 or 2 frets down from the octave.
But, the most important and useful thing to know is the Minor 3rd and Major 3rd.

the other thing I learned, from looking at piano keyboard, is that building a chord / arpeggio, is that 1 3 5 is either the first not plus a major 3rd and a minor 3rd on top of that (major chord) or the first note plus a minor 3rd and a major 3rd on top of that. And that’s why I found that PPI t 1 above was really helpful, as I could build the arpeggio and scale from any note just by knowing the 3rds

Rocker · March 2021

Can someone please tell me what is the benefit of knowing the notes on the fretboard? I play sounds not specific notes, I have a feeling of where the required sounds are located. This is only an issue when I am learning something, I don't adlib or improvise so when I work out something, I tab it and learn it. This might take a few days but it has the advantage of being movable if played in different keys.

ToneControl · March 2021

Rocker said:

Can someone please tell me what is the benefit of knowing the notes on the fretboard? I play sounds not specific notes, I have a feeling of where the required sounds are located. This is only an issue when I am learning something, I don't adlib or improvise so when I work out something, I tab it and learn it. This might take a few days but it has the advantage of being movable if played in different keys.

I think you just need the shape of the scales, and know where the root notes are
If you know these, then knowing the notes on just the E string will enable a lot of playing options

viz · March 2021

Rocker said:

Can someone please tell me what is the benefit of knowing the notes on the fretboard? I play sounds not specific notes, I have a feeling of where the required sounds are located. This is only an issue when I am learning something, I don't adlib or improvise so when I work out something, I tab it and learn it. This might take a few days but it has the advantage of being movable if played in different keys.

You don’t have to know them, unless you play in the sorts of situations where someone says that should be a D#, or, can you play an F over that please.

Otherwise, yes, guitar is such a transposable instrument and rock music is so simple that using chord numbers and scale degrees is usually sufficient.

Having said that, learning the notes is not arduous and seems a fairly sensible thing to do.

Beexter · April 2021

I'm also trying to learn the fretboard and have found that playing with a tuner permanently on is helping - I try to name the note and can quickly check if I'm right or not without having to refer to a chart.
I still have a long way to go before I can instantly name a note but using a tuner in this way gives you a very fast and simple answer.
I am a bit closer to knowing the fretboard than i was this time last week and if i keep at it, I'll be a bit better this time next week...

Barney · April 2021

Try and play what's in your head ...and iff you don't think it don't play it ...I bet you could sing a great solo along to a track ...even just using a few notes and different timings ect ....probably the last thing in your head would be a pentatonic scale for ecample but a lot of the time that's what we play more out of habit that anything .....but In my opinion the key to good solos is playing what your thinking..

viz · April 2021

Barney said:

Try and play what's in your head ...and iff you don't think it don't play it ...I bet you could sing a great solo along to a track ...even just using a few notes and different timings ect ....probably the last thing in your head would be a pentatonic scale for ecample but a lot of the time that's what we play more out of habit that anything .....but In my opinion the key to good solos is playing what your thinking..

This!!!!!!!!!!!

Your mind is probably singing good solos all day long. Being an instrumental composer / improvisor is all about making that mental magick happen in the fingers.

bermudianbrit · May 2021

This is so interesting to me. I have perfect pitch, which...made me lazy, basically. For the longest time I didn't bother learning the board because I knew instinctively what note I was on...sadly that...doesn't help you until you hit it, and if its a clanger, boy do you know about it!
So learning songs with basic cords was fine...in rock/blues/country I can here the cords with no difficulty at all. Voicings and creative soloing though...that's where I got lazy. 16 years I've played, and this is still a failing of mine.

bobblehat · May 2021

I'm in a similar position to axisus. Been playing guitar for the best part of 35 years but never really spent any meaningful time learning how to play. Never had a lesson and just picked things up as I went. This is mostly due to not having the time (kids ,work etc) . As a result I'm pretty clueless when it comes to soloing. I'd consider myself to be reasonably good guitarist and have held my own as the guitarist in a covers band for the last 15 years. I am aware that learning to play other peoples solos is a completely different skill to being able to improvise.
I guess the reason this question comes up tie and time again is that we just don't know where to start. There never seems to be a simple road map to follow and everyone seems to have a different opinion, Maybe its easier if your a complete beginner .
I've recently gone back to basics and started working my way through "Blues you can use" . I bought it on a recommendation from a similar thread on here about 5 years ago! Started it but only got through the first 2 chapters. Currently on Chapter 6 so that progress!

merlin · May 2021

Buy my Digitech Jamman Stereo and practise until the cows come home.

greejn · May 2021

A different approach might help, playing chord melody and mixing it in with single note lines.

Cookiemonster · May 2021

Lewy said:

Danny1969 said:

DesWalker said:

A good start would be to learn the notes on the fretboard. Start with the frets that have dots and build out from there. I don’t see how you can get anywhere without that. You’ve got to get very familiar with the chromatic scale.

Yep totally agree. You have to know where the notes is you want to be able to implement cool ideals on the fly. Without that fundamental knowledge everything is going ground to a halt very quickly.

I observed a David Greer masterclass one time and he went round the room asking people what they wanted to achieve and nearly all of them said they wanted to improve their improvisation. He said OK, and asked them each to play Happy Birthday in whatever key he called out. Nobody got through it without a mistake, and this was an intermediate/advanced class. It was a great way to bring home the importance of the ground work of ear training and being able to find the notes - people wanted to be able to improvise but couldn't find the most familiar melody of all time on their instrument.

There is no way I could do that. That's fascinating. I really to up my game.
I think I am stuck in a rut like the OP.

I've been trying a few new things, but I think for me at least it's time for some lessons.

Maybe that would help @axisus ;

hollywoodrox · May 2021

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT FOR LEARNING FRETBOARD NOTES

it’s much better than octaves and other patterns , the more you play it the better you get and it’s quite fun . I’m sure I found it on here in another thread 3 or 4 years ago . It’s really really good.

I only knew the obvious ones at first like the low E and A string . It’s just remembering to practice daily , I keep meaning to . Perhaps we could have a thread and see how we are all doing .

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

viz · May 2021

hollywoodrox said:

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT FOR LEARNING FRETBOARD NOTES

it’s much better than octaves and other patterns , the more you play it the better you get and it’s quite fun . I’m sure I found it on here in another thread 3 or 4 years ago . It’s really really good.

I only knew the obvious ones at first like the low E and A string . It’s just remembering to practice daily , I keep meaning to . Perhaps we could have a thread and see how we are all doing .

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

That’s a really really good little tool!

hollywoodrox · May 2021

viz said:

hollywoodrox said:

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT FOR LEARNING FRETBOARD NOTES

it’s much better than octaves and other patterns , the more you play it the better you get and it’s quite fun . I’m sure I found it on here in another thread 3 or 4 years ago . It’s really really good.

I only knew the obvious ones at first like the low E and A string . It’s just remembering to practice daily , I keep meaning to . Perhaps we could have a thread and see how we are all doing .

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

That’s a really really good little tool!

It really is , you can get quite good in a small amount of time plus there’s a training mode without the timer ,it’s fun to play against the timer though

viz · May 2021

How do you get it out of beginner mode though?

hollywoodrox · June 2021

It should be in game mode to begin with , the string lights up yellow and you click where the note is , you are on a countdown timer so no beginner mode ,the quicker you do it the more points you score ,there is a leaderboard

bobblehat · June 2021

viz said:

hollywoodrox said:

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT FOR LEARNING FRETBOARD NOTES

it’s much better than octaves and other patterns , the more you play it the better you get and it’s quite fun . I’m sure I found it on here in another thread 3 or 4 years ago . It’s really really good.

I only knew the obvious ones at first like the low E and A string . It’s just remembering to practice daily , I keep meaning to . Perhaps we could have a thread and see how we are all doing .

https://www.fachords.com/tools/fretboard-trainer/

That’s a really really good little tool!

Thats good nad harder than I thought it would be.

viz · June 2021

I can't get above 30, it's impossible!

hollywoodrox · June 2021

It reall is good keep at it @viz ;

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It's the age old question - my solos suck! How do I improve?

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