Does action affect tone?

yocky · December 2020

I have an Avalon L2-20 Jumbo and I've become unsatisfied with the tone of the thicker strings. Not sure I have the vocab to specify what the issue is though. They're just a bit lifeless compared to 2 other decent acoustics I have.

The 12th fret action on the low E is about 2.75mm, so pretty high. Would that make a difference?

sev112 · December 2020

I swap plectrums to brighten or deaden the tone on my acoustics on any one day. I tend to have 12s on them , and have found I like Martin’s. But I find day to day humidity and room temperature the biggest variant.

don’t know about action, sorry

ICBM · December 2020

Yes, action affects tone, especially on an acoustic and for two reasons...

1 - when the action is slightly too low, the initial string attack transients will hit the frets. This actually happens quite a bit before it's really audible as "fret buzz", because it only clips off the top of the very first (and much larger than the rest) string movement. But by doing that, it robs the string vibration of a lot of energy which makes the volume and tone a lot worse. Once the action is just above this point, there isn't as much further change (and on an electric, none I think).

2 - on an acoustic, a higher action at the saddle produces more of a force on the bridge and the top, by simple leverage - that gives more vibration transfer to the top, more volume and a stronger tone. There is a limit though - you don't want it *too* high, or the force on the saddle tends to be more 'forwards' and not 'up and down', so you don't want the break angle over the top of the saddle greater than 45º (when the two directions of force are equal), but closer to that than flat is better. Obviously whether the saddle can be as high - or as low - as this depends on the height of the bridge itself and the neck angle.

So on an acoustic, the 'sweet spot' is somewhere between 1 and 2. On an electric, it's much closer to (or more or less exactly at) 1.

On an acoustic, 2.75mm on the low E is actually not that high an action - I would call that medium really - but check the relief (fret the G string at the first fret and the 15th while holding the guitar normally, and check that there is a small gap of about half the string diameter between it and the 7th fret), and see whether the bridge looks about the right height going by point 2.

yocky · December 2020

Thanks for the characteristically detailed reply.

I'd already checked the relief, which seems fine. The nut could probably do with a small adjustment but the issue is present when fretted in any case.

The action is actually 3mm on rechecking. The guitar I'm comparing it to has an action of just 1.75mm. That seems ridiculously low but I don't have any obvious issues with that one.

I was wondering about break angles. How do these look? I'm guessing the lower one which I prefer the sound of looks terrible.

ICBM · December 2020

Interestingly the top one is about right, although towards the upper end of it - it looks about 45º - but the bottom one is far too low and should give a weaker, thinner sound... in theory. Sometimes theory and practice don't always work like that though!

TheBigDipper · December 2020

Interesting comments and pictures. I've got a L'Arrivee L-01 where my lack of care one summer resulted in a bellied top and a very high action. That got fixed by lowering the bridge (as per the second picture) and the guitar doesn't sound anything like as good as it used to. Plays well, but not as loud and not as resonant.

yocky · December 2020

Oh don't. I live in constant fear of that kind of mishap.

I don't think that's what's happened in the second pic though. The owner before me has just lowered the action to a seemingly extreme degree. Sounds great though.

TimmyO · December 2020

It might be worth experimenting with different strings (if the main concern is sound rather than playability)

As a couple of threads here show different strings can suit different guitars

yocky · December 2020

Good shout, strings will be next port of call.

TheBigDipper · December 2020

yocky said:

Oh don't. I live in constant fear of that kind of mishap.

I don't think that's what's happened in the second pic though. The owner before me has just lowered the action to a seemingly extreme degree. Sounds great though.

Well, don't copy my mistake. I left it on a stand in a room facing southwest for three months of a hot summer so I could just pick it up and play it whenever... It got lots of direct sunlight and I'm an idiot! Over time, the action got worse and worse until I finally noticed.

In better news, I think it might be getting a bit better (after 4 years) and maybe I could try a new bridge or a fillet of wood in the slot to raise it up a little.

ToneControl · December 2020

Tighten up the strings a semitone, and see if you are happier with the tone

What gauge and brand/type of strings are you using, and how old are they?

TheBigDipper · December 2020

ToneControl said:

Tighten up the strings a semitone, and see if you are happier with the tone

What gauge and brand/type of strings are you using, and how old are they?

Me? Or yocky?

ToneControl · December 2020

TheBigDipper said:

ToneControl said:

Tighten up the strings a semitone, and see if you are happier with the tone

What gauge and brand/type of strings are you using, and how old are they?

Me? Or yocky?

yocky

yocky · December 2020

ToneControl said:

Tighten up the strings a semitone, and see if you are happier with the tone

What gauge and brand/type of strings are you using, and how old are they?

Yes things do improve when I tune up. I got the thicker 4 in F# std and there was a noticeable crispness that was lacking previously. The action was also 4mm plus by then, I can rule that out as a negative factor I guess.

I can't remember what strings I've got on there tbh. They'll be 12 to 54s. Probably knocking on a bit. I somehow don't think string age is an issue though. I'm lazy with string changing and haven't noticed this before.

Anyway will change these and see what happens.

ToneControl · December 2020

you need new strings to tell what's happening
the wound ones go dead pretty quickly

I use 11s, and find that dropping to DADGAD loses the tone, so I tune up a semitone from that
12s should be OK for tension

If the neck relief was not adequate, that would improve with tightening the strings or using a higher gauge, 3mm should be enough anyway if the relief is OK

Like ICBM says, check the relief
I do it by fretting the first fret with the left hand, and the fret where the body starts (13th/14th) with my right little finger, then tap the string around the 8th to 10th fret. Does it give a proper tap noise, or was it already on the frets?

yocky · December 2020

The relief seems fine from a quick tap test. I'll replace the strings and get the old feeler gauges out over the next few days.

ICBM · December 2020

yocky said:

The relief seems fine from a quick tap test. I'll replace the strings and get the old feeler gauges out over the next few days.

I never bother - by eye is fine, any more precision than that is determined by how even the fretting is and whether it rattles anywhere. I simply use the G string - because it's in the middle of the neck and easiest to sight under - and look for a gap of around half the string diameter or slightly less. (ie technically about .010" give or take a couple.).

Very important - check it when holding the guitar normally, not lying down on its back on a bench. The weight of the neck and headstock is enough to affect the relief like that, although more so on electrics with a relatively thinner neck.

yocky · December 2020

ICBM said:

I never bother - by eye is fine, any more precision than that is determined by how even the fretting is and whether it rattles anywhere. I simply use the G string - because it's in the middle of the neck and easiest to sight under - and look for a gap of around half the string diameter or slightly less. (ie technically about .010" give or take a couple.).

Alright Six Million Dollar Man. Some of us have to squint to make out the guitar.......

TimmyO · December 2020

yocky said:

ICBM said:

I never bother - by eye is fine, any more precision than that is determined by how even the fretting is and whether it rattles anywhere. I simply use the G string - because it's in the middle of the neck and easiest to sight under - and look for a gap of around half the string diameter or slightly less. (ie technically about .010" give or take a couple.).

Alright Six Million Dollar Man. Some of us have to squint to make out the guitar.......

:-) ICBM is (as ever) right - honestly you might be surprised how easy it is to tell if it's madly off from what you like or are used to - fret 1st fret with your left index finger, hold the same string down somewhere above the highest fret with your right hand pinky and use your right hand index finger or thumb to kind of tap up and down on the strong, and observe how much movement you see before the string touches the frets at its mid point (which In think is 9th fret? - you'll be able to tell)

If you do that on a guitar that plays nicely (to you) you can develop a decent sense of "seems about right" by comparison. It's certainly easy to tell if the clearance in that test is more than a string diameter vs half a diameter etc - no need to get to the feeler-gauge definition unless you were trying to convey to someone else exactly how you like it imho

ICBM · December 2020

yocky said:

Alright Six Million Dollar Man. Some of us have to squint to make out the guitar.......

Sadly I'm only the budget version - I've got a stainless steel elbow, but they didn't do anything about my eyes... I can hardly see beyond the end of my nose without my specs, and these days my arms aren't long enough *with* my specs

.

TheOtherDennis · December 2020

@yocky ;

You could ask Avalon to shave something off the top of the bridge to compensate for the low saddle. They did that for me this summer on my Avalon A200. They charged £70 for the shave and £56 for couriers both ways.

Email steve@avalonguitars.com, he sorted mine out. It sounds a lot brighter now.

As it happens, I also have an L2-20, which I think sounds fine, but the action and saddle height are, too, so that probably doesn't help much, sorry.

yocky · December 2020

TheOtherDennis said:

@yocky ;

You could ask Avalon to shave something off the top of the bridge to compensate for the low saddle. They did that for me this summer on my Avalon A200. They charged £70 for the shave and £56 for couriers both ways.

Email steve@avalonguitars.com, he sorted mine out. It sounds a lot brighter now.

As it happens, I also have an L2-20, which I think sounds fine, but the action and saddle height are, too, so that probably doesn't help much, sorry.

Are you saying that because you're looking at my second picture? My Avalon is the top picture with the high saddle.

Anyway thanks, it's good to know they're happy to take on adjustments like that.

TheOtherDennis · December 2020

Yes, that's what I was saying, because my Avalon was like the second picture with the low saddle, and is now like the first one.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

yocky · January 2021

TheOtherDennis said:

Yes, that's what I was saying, because my Avalon was like the second picture with the low saddle, and is now like the first one.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Not at all

Anyway I finally got round to putting the same new strings on both guitars and I love them both equally again now, that's made all the difference. So full marks to @ToneControl, cheers.

Zero marks to me I guess for not doing that sooner, but the BSG I was preferring definitely had even older and visibly discoloured strings which made me certain that wasn't the issue.

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Does action affect tone?

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