Would you pay £850 for a Sigma acoustic

lapua65 · November 2020

I have narrowed my choice between 2 dreadnaughts that both play nicely but am a bit torn. The prices are close enough to not be an issue. One is the Gibson G45 Studio and the other an all solid DT45+. It doesn't need to be electro acoustic. They both sound great to me and despite one being very bling and the other very plain. I prefer the finish of the Sigma but the neck on the Gibson feels lovely. I am a bit hesitant of the sigma as it feels like a copy. The Gibson does make me think of it as a cheap Gibson. I think the Sigma is probably my preferred the slightly beefier sound of the Sigma. The Gibson is just a tad brighter
Is £850 on a Sigma too much for a Martin Copy?

Andy79 · November 2020

That Sigma seems to have Basswood back/sides. Never have I seen that on an acoustic, I’d be interested how it sounds
You will take a big got in resale on that Sigma

G45s are great. Those two guitars must be poles apart in tone and feel
Dont worry about it being a copy, most guitars are.

TheMadMick · November 2020

Don't forget that you can change guitar tone / balance with a change of strings, change of bridge material and probably other things that don't spring to mid at this time on a Sunday might.

My only experience of a Sigma was a 6 string cutaway that sounded OK but the neck was a bit narrow for my stubby fingers,. You'd think I'd have noticed that before buying it!

Cranky · November 2020

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

I had a J45 Studio for a spell. It was nice, but the "Studio" does affect the value and resale. And I did feel in the end that I wanted a type of tone more than that neck.

If you really prefer the Sigma, work out a deal on it or find a used one.

Andy79 · November 2020

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

cmacguitar · November 2020

Deffo just buy the one you like the sound of and like to play. I went with a friend to try some guitars under £600 a little while ago and for the money one of the Martin HPL guitars sounded better than the competition including a £800 Taylor. For £850 I would deffo recommend trying a Martin 000-15m second hand. I managed to find one for a pal at £900. They always seem great value for a solid mahogany guitar.

TheBigDipper · November 2020

You always feel the neck under your hands. Unless you play facing a mirror, you never really see the guitar. Hope that helps!

lustycourtier · November 2020

Bit of a curveball, but I recently bought a 90s Washburn D32S, and it destroys my 2016 Gibson J45. I was looking at Sigmas at the time and it came up locally so I checked it out.

It was 200 quid.

Sounds huge, and every frequency is balanced.

Tadragh1 · November 2020

I never liked a single Sigma I played, to be honest. Not sure if that's constructive, though

Jalapeno · November 2020

I wouldn't ever consider paying that much for a Sigma Martin wannabe

(and I had a Sigma 12 string for 10yrs)

There's much nicer stuff around from the likes of Breedlove, Faith etc

Cranky · November 2020

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

TheMarlin · November 2020

I’ve had two Sigma acoustic. My brother lived in Korea, and now China. He picked them up for me. .

No, I wouldn’t pay more than £200 for one, amd even then, I think there are better sounding guitars to be had.

One I gave away to my niece as her first acoustic, the other i traded.

Any Yamaha FG model (even the starter FG300/310) sounds better than either Sigma I’ve had.

They are just budget Far Eastern acoustics, with a famous big sister. Nothing special, both were underwhelming sounding guitars.

Andy79 · November 2020

Cranky said:

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

The Sigma part. Why shouldn’t a solid wood guitar from China cost that much?
To imply that they are not real instruments is the ridiculous bit
For the sub 1k market Far Eastern guitars are not to be overlooked

A D15 is around £1300. Hardly a fair comparison
And a G45 is what it is, a cheap copy of a J that sounds nothing like one

Strangefan · November 2020

Cranky said:

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

Sorry but that thinking is outdated by about 10 years, Chinese guitars are outstanding these days and cost a premium, any any modern day metal player, none of them play usa it's all far east,
You need to play: an eastman
Strandberg, d'angelico, schecter, modern day bc rich the list goes on.

if you think all US guitars are caressed and made passionately by a caring considerate workforce in America you're wrong, I'd rather have a far Eastern guitar made in a decent factory than American any day.

cmacguitar · November 2020

My mate has this one and has toured it for a few years and it sounds pretty decent. https://www.andertons.co.uk/sigma-sig-jm-sg45-w-fishman-sonitone-gloss-sunburst-sig-jm-sg45plus?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=surfaces&gclid=CjwKCAiAv4n9BRA9EiwA30WND18zmVBgNPdoglYLix94NhUrCMmoL81vEuTMoqDWGQJs5BftobiT0xoC89cQAvD_BwE ;

Cranky · November 2020

Strangefan said:

Cranky said:

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

Sorry but that thinking is outdated by about 10 years, Chinese guitars are outstanding these days and cost a premium, any any modern day metal player, none of them play usa it's all far east,
You need to play: an eastman
Strandberg, d'angelico, schecter, modern day bc rich the list goes on.

if you think all US guitars are caressed and made passionately by a caring considerate workforce in America you're wrong, I'd rather have a far Eastern guitar made in a decent factory than American any day.

You and @Andy79 miss my point. I cast no judgement on an instrument merely for being made in China. All but three of my guitars were made in either Mexico, Indonesia or China and I love them all. I have a lovely D'Angelico acoustic from China (which I bought because the 50% discount made the price reasonable), and I had a made-in-Korea D'Angelico Deluxe SS for a couple of days that was barely worth the 75% discount that I got on it.

My point is basically about the labor overhead. If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out, you're letting the labor-outsourcers get away with metaphorical murder. And you're paying full price for a lesser guitar that you're gonna lose a bunch of money on, rather than spending a little more on a better guitar that will hold value much longer.

lustycourtier · November 2020

Cranky said:

Strangefan said:

Cranky said:

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

Sorry but that thinking is outdated by about 10 years, Chinese guitars are outstanding these days and cost a premium, any any modern day metal player, none of them play usa it's all far east,
You need to play: an eastman
Strandberg, d'angelico, schecter, modern day bc rich the list goes on.

if you think all US guitars are caressed and made passionately by a caring considerate workforce in America you're wrong, I'd rather have a far Eastern guitar made in a decent factory than American any day.

You and @Andy79 miss my point. I cast no judgement on an instrument merely for being made in China. All but three of my guitars were made in either Mexico, Indonesia or China and I love them all. I have a lovely D'Angelico acoustic from China (which I bought because the 50% discount made the price reasonable), and I had a made-in-Korea D'Angelico Deluxe SS for a couple of days that was barely worth the 75% discount that I got on it.

My point is basically about the labor overhead. If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out, you're letting the labor-outsourcers get away with metaphorical murder. And you're paying full price for a lesser guitar that you're gonna lose a bunch of money on, rather than spending a little more on a better guitar that will hold value much longer.

I think your view of China and the general cost of stuff is way out of date, and from January you are in for even more of a shock.

Andy79 · November 2020

https://austinguitars.co.uk/product/sigma-dt-41-plus-boxed-new-unused/

earwighoney · November 2020

Cranky said:

My point is basically about the labor overhead. If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out, you're letting the labor-outsourcers get away with metaphorical murder. And you're paying full price for a lesser guitar that you're gonna lose a bunch of money on, rather than spending a little more on a better guitar that will hold value much longer.

I have a few guitars from the Sigma factory (99.99% sure they make guitars for Recording King and a few others), and I'd not spend the best part of a grand for a Sigma factory made guitar, as even though they sound and play great they have a few little quirks I'd not be very enthusiastic about at near a grand, but in the UK Recording King have a few models around the £500-600 mark with Red Spruce soundboards and they sound great, and that'd be the most I'd be willing to spend on one of their instruments.

Eastman's quality is great, and I'd have no problem to get another of their premium (eg Red Spruce) guitars over a grand and as their instruments holding value, their prices have risen (eg the E10 is almost 100% more expensive than when I bought mine) so the issue of their premium guitars hold value is not a straightforward one for everyone.

Martins are a little expensive in the UK but for an Eastern built instrument (if it is a problem for some, it isn't for me) Furch have some well guitars for good prices in comparison to their Martin counterparts.

Back to the OP though, I think the new all solid Gibsons sound fantastic, good guitars with straight old D28 bracing (ie not scalloped). A few years back I tried a 10 or so Gibson J15's/35's and they were near enough all superb, I'd definitely consider a new Gibson acoustic if I was looking for a dread.

idiotwindow · November 2020

Cranky said:

If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out

I don't think Martin have any connection with Sigma nowadays and haven't done for years. They share a UK distributor but there is no direct relationship.

Getting back to the original question, I'd personally get the guitar with the more comfortable neck. I also prefer the idea of a spartan looking basic guitar built down to a cost in a USA factory than a fancy looking Chinese made copy aiming to look like something much more expensive. The latter, no matter how decent it might sound, has the whiff of a Chibson (or, more accurately, a Chartin) about it. No guitar costing under a grand should have abalone inlays and binding – it looks a bit ridiculous and, perversely, makes the guitar look cheap.

deejay. · January 2021

I bought a Sigma Modern Series GK2CE-4+ Koa. Cost me £600. Had my luthier set it up. Neck came out a bit concave in the end, but it sounds lovely, plugged-in or not. In his words - looks like a Taylor; plays like a Taylor (mostly); sounds like a Taylor. I'm not looking to move it on, so resale value is not important. If it sounds nice, feels nice, and you enjoy picking it up and playing it (and I do), who cares what it says on the headstock?

ronnyb · January 2021

Martin haven't had anything to do with Sigma since 2007. The brand is owned by a German company.

deejay. · January 2021

ronnyb said:

Martin haven't had anything to do with Sigma since 2007. The brand is owned by a German company.

Yes, I'd read that somewhere...

Teacherphil · January 2021

Ive never played either but on the YouTube clips I've seen the G45 is pretty good. That Gibson will hold its value.

benjyt123 · March 2021

Ive had 2 sigmas. One, that I still have, is great. Small bodied 00-15 I believe (loaned to a friend atm so cant check). The other being a 12 string, which I absolutely despised. Went back out of the door as soon as it came in.
The first guitar was sub 150 notes.
Long story short, I personally wouldn't drop 850 quid on a sigma, there's better options out there for that budget, imo.

DavidR · March 2021

Again this US vs. 'foreign' thing in parts of this thread. It's infuriating. Really great guitars are made all around the world these days. It's fine for Americans to have that 'US is best 'attitude - it's loyal and admirable. But the rest of us don't have to buy into the advertising and can make our own choices.

And, by the way, China has been making stringed instruments for at least 5,000 years. Why are we surprised they're brilliant at it? This is a Guqin -
https://dribbble.com/shots/11209271-Young-Woman-Playing-The-Guqin
Looks a bit like a guitar doesn't it. And here's a statuette of a girl playing one from the Han Dynasty (221-206 BC)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Girl_playing_a_Guqin._Mingqi._Eastern_Han_Dynasty._Toulon_Asian_Art_Museum.jpg

Probably an Eastman.

TheMarlin · March 2021

I’ve had 2 Sigma acoustics. Nice to play, but a cheap Yamaha FG outclassed them both in every way. It’s a budget brand of a premium maker, and sounds like a budget guitar.

I wouldn’t pay more than £50 for one (though in truth, wouldn’t ever consider buying another).

maw4neu · March 2021

Short Answer : Not in a million years . . .

Tannin · March 2021

DavidR said:

Again this US vs. 'foreign' thing in parts of this thread. It's infuriating. Really great guitars are made all around the world these days. It's fine for Americans to have that 'US is best 'attitude - it's loyal and admirable. But the rest of us don't have to buy into the advertising and can make our own choices.

Well, it is a known fact that there are only two countries in the world - US and Foreign.

The ones that makes me laugh are those who claim that US guitars aren't overpriced, they only cost more than "foreign" ones because of the high cost of labour in the USA. In fact, of course, the US pays lower wages than a lot of "foreigns" do - Japan, Germany, Australia, and South Korea all have higher wages than the US, and I haven't checked but it's a fair bet that most of the the rest of Western Europe does too.

On the other hand, I am reluctant to buy any guitar made in China or Indonesia. It's not that I worry about quality so much (that Sigma I looked at in the other thread, bling aside, was a fine instrument I'd be happy to own), or even human rights and worker exploitation (I feel concern for these things, but can never work out whether buying or refusing to buy does more harm or good), it is all about environmental practices. How do I know that the timber was harvested legally and sustainably? Even if the company claims that it's doing all these things right, how can I trust or verify that? I feel much more confident dealing with local companies which I know have good track records.

rlw · March 2021

Cranky said:

Strangefan said:

Cranky said:

Andy79 said:

Cranky said:

Gibson necks are lovely. And I'd pay maybe half that or a little more for a Sigma, as that's more than a foreign-made guitar ought to cost.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say

Which, the Gibson or the Sigma part?

Sigmas are made in China. If a manufacturer outsources to save labor costs, I'm gonna make sure some of those savings are passed on to me. There's no way a guitar made in China should cost £850, particular given that the value will plummet as soon as it becomes a used instrument.

For a couple hundred pounds more, you could have a real solid-body Martin like a D15 or a studio Gibson, which I would absolutely buy over a Sigma at those respective prices.

Sorry but that thinking is outdated by about 10 years, Chinese guitars are outstanding these days and cost a premium, any any modern day metal player, none of them play usa it's all far east,
You need to play: an eastman
Strandberg, d'angelico, schecter, modern day bc rich the list goes on.

if you think all US guitars are caressed and made passionately by a caring considerate workforce in America you're wrong, I'd rather have a far Eastern guitar made in a decent factory than American any day.

You and @Andy79 miss my point. I cast no judgement on an instrument merely for being made in China. All but three of my guitars were made in either Mexico, Indonesia or China and I love them all. I have a lovely D'Angelico acoustic from China (which I bought because the 50% discount made the price reasonable), and I had a made-in-Korea D'Angelico Deluxe SS for a couple of days that was barely worth the 75% discount that I got on it.

My point is basically about the labor overhead. If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out, you're letting the labor-outsourcers get away with metaphorical murder. And you're paying full price for a lesser guitar that you're gonna lose a bunch of money on, rather than spending a little more on a better guitar that will hold value much longer.

Surely the question to ask is what that same guitar would cost if it was made in America. If it would cost the same, you have a point, but it wouldn't cost the same would it.

rlw · March 2021

idiotwindow said:

Cranky said:

If you pay £850 for a Sigma, you're letting Martin/Sigma pull one over on you, you're selling out

I don't think Martin have any connection with Sigma nowadays and haven't done for years. They share a UK distributor but there is no direct relationship.

Getting back to the original question, I'd personally get the guitar with the more comfortable neck. I also prefer the idea of a spartan looking basic guitar built down to a cost in a USA factory than a fancy looking Chinese made copy aiming to look like something much more expensive. The latter, no matter how decent it might sound, has the whiff of a Chibson (or, more accurately, a Chartin) about it. No guitar costing under a grand should have abalone inlays and binding – it looks a bit ridiculous and, perversely, makes the guitar look cheap.

And the answer to that comment is it has abalone inlays and binding which are normally expensive because it is made in a low labour cost country and cost saved elsewhere has been put into making it look nice.

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Would you pay £850 for a Sigma acoustic

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