Secondary dominant off the iii

Cranky · September 2020

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG
Emin    = EGB
Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.

But op wants to go out of key with a secondary dominant

Cranky · September 2020

Cranky said:

So why not a D7, like a chromatic walk up from C to Em? It sort of has the added benefit of being a borrowed chord plus being the dominant of the primary key's V chord (leading into its relative minor), so that's a common key change strategy also. Or is that not as spicy as what we want?

Not to quote myself, but . . . I just realized that the op specified a V of iii progression. Sorry for the misread.

But at any rate, to me a C-B7-Em progression sounds like the song's ending, while C-D7-Em sounds like a transition to a different part of the song.

Stuckfast · September 2020

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG
Emin    = EGB
Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.

Wouldn't your 'Bdim' in that context actually just be a rootless G7, ie. the dominant 7th in the key of C?

Cranky · September 2020

Stuckfast said:

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG
Emin    = EGB
Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.

Wouldn't your 'Bdim' in that context actually just be a rootless G7, ie. the dominant 7th in the key of C?

Yeah, a diminished is basically an inverted dominant, which is a reason they're used interchangeably or together in jazzier arrangements. But still, the op is looking for a secondary dominant. So maybe consider using a D#dim instead of or in conjunction with the B7, as using both builds more tension, i.e. C-D#dim-B7-Em.

GuyBoden · September 2020

For more voice leading, I'd probably play Emin with the B note in the bass:

CMaj = CEG

Emin = BEG

Bdim = BDF

Personally, I'd avoid secondary dominants as it makes the progression more difficult for improvisation.

Greatape · November 2020

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants.

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic.

Brad · November 2020

Greatape said:

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants.

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic.

Very true as D#dim is the top notes of a B7, so B, B7 and D#dim serve the same role to a lesser or greater extent. I guess I’d be cautious talking subs early on with someone getting to grips with secondary dominants mind... could cause more confusion. But the fact remains

Cranky · November 2020

This is a good lesson on the wonderful world of secondary dominants. Get your pen and paper ready.

Greatape · May 2021

Brad said:

Greatape said:

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants.

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic.

Very true as D#dim is the top notes of a B7, so B, B7 and D#dim serve the same role to a lesser or greater extent. I guess I’d be cautious talking subs early on with someone getting to grips with secondary dominants mind... could cause more confusion. But the fact remains

Yeah.. although increasingly, I see those as interchangeable. Handy 'street theory' hint, folks: play the basic triad for a dom7 chord e.g. Bb for Bb7, flatten the root down a whole tone, and you have the dim triad off the 3rd (D dim in this case)...

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Secondary dominant off the iii

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