Basic acoustic recording - tips and questions

thecolourbox · September 2020

Hi all

Been dreaming up a bit of an acoustic project to get my writing, arranging and singing skills improving a bit more. Basically to do some originals and some covers in minimal arrangements with guitar, piano, voice with little by way of fancy effects, to try and build up my songcraft and singing ability. I "played" for an online creative festival thing earlier in the summer and whilst I was quite happy with the recordings I felt there was room for improvement and for learning

What I'd like to ask, is how to approach recording my acoustic. I did the two above "live" ie singing and playing at the same time into the interface, but I did do some mixing and effects in the DAW of course.

Current set up - It's a Big Baby Taylor so has no pickup, I can't upgrade the guitar but to be honest I think it's an adequate instrument. For the above I used a Seymour Duncan Woody single coil pickup, I think it was basically straight into my interface into Cubase. I added some eq and reverb, but there is an annoying hiss with this pickup that it's really hard to reduce with EQ without altering the sound. If you listen to the above you'll probably still make it out when just the guitar is playing without me whining over the top of it.

So question 1 - would replacing the Woody with a humbucker version of the Woody do the job? Any other similarly cheap pickups worth a look?

When I did a little EP type project before, I tried recording through the woody and a mic simultaneously to then blend the two together into a nicer sound. Except it didn't really work that well and and I kept whacking the mic whilst playing. Also I seem to sway a bit whilst playing so the volume on the mic was a bit up and down.

So question number 2 - is there a a better (but similarly cheap) option to approach this? Should I be looking at acoustic IRs to make it sound more like my guitar than like a sort-of acoustic sound through a pickup?

And question number 3 - If you have any criticisms of the above recordings that would improve the sound next time I try and do stuff, please do share. I don't get offended

I think a bit more bass on the acoustic might be needed but you tell me - I've heard it too many times now and have gone a bit deaf to it all

Thank you in advance!

Matt

Winny_Pooh · September 2020

Two problems, you want cheap and better, plus dont want a mic.

If you want better, get a decent budget Rode/ Aston/SE electronics condensor or an Audix i5 and stick at around the 15th fret pointing at the soundhole and sit your arse down, the greats can manage so you can too

If you are moving and really can't use a mic then get a Fishman rare earth blend, but £££

thecolourbox · September 2020

Winny_Pooh said:

Two problems, you want cheap and better, plus dont want a mic.

If you want better, get a decent budget Rode/ Aston/SE electronics condensor or an Audix i5 and stick at around the 15th fret pointing at the soundhole and sit your arse down, the greats can manage so you can too

If you are moving and really can't use a mic then get a Fishman rare earth blend, but £££

Thanks, yes you are quite correct but I don't really like acoustic music or playing enough to sink much more money into it really. I will make a note of those for future reference though

To be honest though I was quite happy with how the above recordings sounded*, except for the hiss. I was hoping the humbucker version would give essentially the same sound without noise, then whether there was any benefit to whether adding an IR either to it directly or in parallel might just give a touch more niceness to it.

It's a pretty basic guitar so I'm not really looking to put too much lipstick on the pig! Especially with my playing ability

*Edit, does that make me cloth eared and there's no hope for me?

octatonic · September 2020

Use a condenser microphone so you can keep a bit of distance between the mic and the guitar.
You can also try a compressor on the mic signal to remove some of the volume difference.

I favour SDC's on acoustic guitar- point it at the 12th fret.
I generally do not like DI'ed acoustic guitars for recording.

thermionic · September 2020

Even a very cheap condenser mike will give good results with a bit of care and experimentation. No need to spend £hundreds, something like this would give you a better sound than any pickup: https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/189684/fs-scarlett-focusrite-cm25-condenser-microphone-40#latest

ICBM · September 2020

The hiss is not coming from the pickup itself, it’s because the output level of the Woody is very low and you have to have the channel gain up too far. The humbucking one isn’t actually much louder.

A better soundhole pickup, preferably active like a Fishman Rare Earth (even the plain one without the blend) or LR Baggs M1A will give you a higher level and help with that.

I don’t actually mind the ‘pickup tone’ you’re getting - I would always say a mic sounds better if you’re trying to get a high quality natural acoustic guitar sound, but a pickup just has a different sound... and a magnetic still sounds better than any kind of piezo (without modelling) to me.

thecolourbox · September 2020

Thanks chaps. Looks like the cheap condenser is looking like the way forwards then. Those pickups cost more than the guitar!

It could well be the low level that is making the hiss worse, but it's definitely something to do with the pickup because when I did a load of recording before, I was getting all kinds of awful hissing and interference sounds because of the laptop screen/powersupply which I had to re-position myself for loads of times to reduce it and even then, the eq I had to do on it to get rid of the sound made it sound like I was playing acoustic with a guitar made out of a baked bean tin.

I will try the Woody I have with my electric modelling unit (Digitech GSP) either on direct mode or with the acoustic sim thing in case that helps as a sort of better preamp for it, then perhaps look to add a cheap mic like the one linked above to blend those two together if the GSP can keep the noise down a bit (there is a gate on it and a lot of eq options so fingers crossed).

I'd forgotten about the GSP until you just mentioned the levels, seems like might be a good idea.

Stuckfast · September 2020

What input are you plugging the pickup into on your interface? It needs to see a very high impedance -- ideally 1MΩ or thereabouts -- so if you plug it into a standard mic or line input it won't sound right. Either you need to plug it into a dedicated high-impedance input (most interfaces have these but some are better than others) or get a DI box.

thecolourbox · September 2020

Stuckfast said:

What input are you plugging the pickup into on your interface? It needs to see a very high impedance -- ideally 1MΩ or thereabouts -- so if you plug it into a standard mic or line input it won't sound right. Either you need to plug it into a dedicated high-impedance input (most interfaces have these but some are better than others) or get a DI box.

I'm not really sure (I'm a bit thick), I just use the jack input which has a picture of a guitar on it!

It's an M Audio Fast Track, which Google suggests has a "Balanced 1/4" TRS line/instrument input" I think, the manual says this:

Guitar Input
max input level +12dBV, min. gain
signal to noise ratio -103dB, A-weighted, min. gain
dynamic range 103dB, A-weighted, min. gain
THD + N 0.005% (-86 dB) @ 1kHz, -1dBFS, min. gain
frequency response 20Hz to 20kHz, -0.2 / +0.1dB, min. gain
gain range 40 dB
input impedance 1M Ohms
crosstalk < -105dB, 1kHz, channel-to-channel

It means nothing to me, ahhh Vienna

Stuckfast · September 2020

That sounds like the right choice.

DavidR · October 2020

I don't confess to being an expert colourbox but this is my setup for a supercheap recording system of .wav files onto CD's. I don't perform anymore but get great pleasure from making CD's for friends/family when I've found 15 to 20 pieces I really like and want to 'preserve for posterity '!!

Zoom handheld recorder. Twin directional mic's record in stereo. Zoom settings are a bit tricky to fathom but it's worth the effort especially the change from .mp3 to .wav format. Bigger bite sampling. Bigger files so less good for emailing but better for quality when making CD's. Zoom records onto SD card. SD goes into desktop. Then use freeware (Audacity) to edit raw files (fade in, fade out, little bit of reverb). Then I create CD on Windows 10 software and burn (usually 30) discs.

Finally I buy some sticky overprintable CD labels and CD cases off Amazon and have great fun producing artwork and final 'pruduct'. It's just like being back at school!!

Not sure many people listen to them subsequently but I enjoy it! More seriously, these CD's document my musical journey and help maintain my momentum for playing.

Hope that helps. Depends what you want to achieve but, yet again, music doesn't require megadosh! ☺

thecolourbox · October 2020

Thanks for the tip, though I've no interest in making music products for friends and family as they don't really like me doing so haha but the Zoom does sound interesting to be fair.

I was considering getting a cheap condenser at some point but that setup would also require me to buy a new interface as currently the most inputs I have on an interface is two - it has one XLR and one Jack - so I wouldn't be able to record the guitar and my singing at the same time. Ideally two XLR and a jack would be the best so I could record voice, mic'd Acoustic and pickup Acoustic. Whereas with something external like the Zoom I could sing into the interface and mic the Acoustic through the Zoom for inputting into Cubase afterwards I suppose.

I had assumed that hand held recorders mics were just a demoing tool and that the mics weren't up to much - was I wrong with that assumption?

DavidR · October 2020

I use Zoom H4 which is getting on a bit now but is fit for purpose for my lttle CD's. There are more modern versions on Amazon. As I say not an expert. Only comparison I can make was trying to record the classical ensemble I was playing with at the time on a somewhat cobbled together studio stereo setup of 2 (different!) condensor mic's and a mixer console. All borrowed! Zoom was better but I had very little idea what I was up to!

All I can say is Zoom gives surprisingly good digital quality on my 'freebie' .wav/Audacity/Windows/CD setup.

Something's working right somewhere anyway!

Have fun colourbox.

artiebear · October 2020

Great voice and playing on those tracks. Sometimes recording a single performance vocal and guitar is better achieved using a single condenser positioned to allow a balance of voice and guitar. It is a matter of trial and error to hit the sweet spot for balance between the two.
With regards to moving position to the mic while recording, that is more about technique than gear. In the same way a decent singer has to learn how to move in and out on the mic, a recording acoustic player has to learn how to remain focused on mic placement.
It is a matter of taste but, the natural sound of your guitar will always give a wider harmonic range than the pick up and will better articulate your picking style.

thecolourbox · October 2020

Hmm that's interesting re using the same mic for both and recording the whole thing together. I'd thought of needing to do both separately as I would be adding different stuff to the vocals than to the guitar when I put it into Cubase - as I did with the above recordings. They were recorded "live" with the mic on my voice and the pickup on the guitar so I could add the vocal effects without them going on the acoustic and vice versa. However I suppose that is overcomplicating things, that said I'd need to be a much better singer than I currently am in order to do them on the same mic and not need to add my usual effects to the vocals if that makes sense.

If recording normal stuff, ie not meant to be like a live performance, then obviously one mic plus pickup is fine into my current interface and then I record the vocals separately. I suppose I need to think about how often I have to sing and play at the same time. I do feel my playing is better that way though, more expressive and I can play about with the timing a lot more as the two are moving together

But then there's the thing that the guitar mic would pick up my singing a little bit as well right?

Oh christ

shufflebeat · October 2020

You could just set up a single mic in a nice room, hit record and play.

Sometimes the gear is what we hide behind, unfortunately most people find it's not a good policy only after spending many hundreds of pounds.

The best investment/return is often in duvets and soft furnishings. I would suggest concentrating on finding a nice sounding space to record in, then learn to love your sound.

P.S. your SoundCloud recordings sound fine. There are some rough edges that will rub off with knowledge and experience but that can't be bought on Amazon.

Good work.

thecolourbox · October 2020

Thanks that's very kind.

I don't have a nice space unfortunately, I live in a small house that is very limited with space, the above were recorded in about a square metre of space in the bedroom, with cables running to the laptop which was out on the landing so as to avoid more horrible noise from the pickup.

I've no intention of spending a fortune on this, I think having written down the various setup options, that the best course of action will be:

Purchase a cheap but OK condensor - seems to be possible with about £40-50 limit.
Maybe purchase one of those vocal mic shield things, probably a cheap one off Amazon unless I can get one second hand on ebay.
For any recordings where I need to sound "live" ie both playing and singing the same time, my existing setup above was adequate for my quality level. I still need to test the guitar with my modelling unit, to see if it can give a better signal and maybe use the noise gate to get rid of the horrible high pitched noise from the pickup.
For any more thorough recording tasks that don't need to be live, use the condenser to record the guitar but double up with the pickup and mix the two together. Then record singing separately also via the condenser.

I think that seems logical

Snags · October 2020

Take this with a large pinch of salt, as I don't really have a clue what I'm doing, and muddle through picking up bits and bobs here and there, but I've been gradually trying to get my head around similar stuff during lockdown, and very much at the budget, if not abject poverty, end of the market for gear.

I got an MXL770 originally to get clearer/brighter vocals than the mics I was using, and recently have started using that as a 'room' mic near the 12th fret, and combining that with the output from the pickup in my guitar (Fishman Matrix blend, set to the half-way position.

I'm more comfortable singing whilst playing, but generally get better results by recording the guitar and vocal separately, so there's more opportunity to mess about with compression, EQ, reverb etc. on each part. And slightly easier to handle punch-ins if need be, not that I ever, ever need to do that, of course

Recording the guitar and vocal separately also forces one (well, me) to think more about my singing, because I haven't got the comfortable symbiosis of guitar tone, hand movement etc. to 'cue' my voice to what's happening next. Initially that makes it worse, but I think overall and long term it's likely to improve it. I hope.

crunchman · October 2020

thecolourbox said:

Hmm that's interesting re using the same mic for both and recording the whole thing together. I'd thought of needing to do both separately as I would be adding different stuff to the vocals than to the guitar when I put it into Cubase - as I did with the above recordings. They were recorded "live" with the mic on my voice and the pickup on the guitar so I could add the vocal effects without them going on the acoustic and vice versa. However I suppose that is overcomplicating things, that said I'd need to be a much better singer than I currently am in order to do them on the same mic and not need to add my usual effects to the vocals if that makes sense.

If recording normal stuff, ie not meant to be like a live performance, then obviously one mic plus pickup is fine into my current interface and then I record the vocals separately. I suppose I need to think about how often I have to sing and play at the same time. I do feel my playing is better that way though, more expressive and I can play about with the timing a lot more as the two are moving together

But then there's the thing that the guitar mic would pick up my singing a little bit as well right?

Oh christ

Vocal mic will pick up quite a lot of guitar as well in my experience.

If you want to play and sing at the same time, then you either need to get very close to the vocal mic, as you would live, or use a single condenser at a distance to capture the whole performance.

TheMadMick · October 2020

I'm nowhere near your level of expertise on guitar but I found recording with a single Rode M3 gave a really good balance of guitar tone and voice. It was pointing towards my solar plexus. Only 2 problems:

1. You can't manipulate the guitar and voice separately as you have already identified

2. If you don't get it right first time, you gotta do the whole thing again - but there's nowt new there.

I've used a pair of Rode M3's in crossed pair config when playing with my mate. If the room acoustic is good then it's comes out very natural to my ear. However looks like you don't really have the space for that.

ToneControl · October 2020

I bought a pair of Sontronic STC 1s
You can point one at the bridge, one at the 12th fret, don't point them at the soundhole
Personally I think 2 mics always give more options during mixing, and adds some 3D to the sound
Use whatever mic you have, if only one, point at the 12th fret
Wear a headset to hear the mics while you record, so that you adapt your position to get the best results

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