Music Theory and Culture

Cranky · September 2020

So here's a little bit of musicology that's already proven to be too hot for TGP. What does this look like from your side of the pond? Does Mr. Neely have a point? Is this a good "music theory" conversation starter, or will someone request that it be moved to the Off Topic section?

DrCornelius · September 2020

Sorry bud but you haven’t embedded a video , just a picture. I think this happens when you embed a video then edit the post ?

Cranky · September 2020

DrCornelius said:

Sorry bud but you haven’t embedded a video , just a picture. I think this happens when you embed a video then edit the post ?

Thanks, fixed.

Brad · September 2020

That was a good watch. I’m with Neely, it ties in with my experiences of music education anyway

Roland · September 2020

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

18th century Europe might have seen some developments in music theory, as it did in physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics etc. However it does not represent the whole of music theory, for example it excludes Indian scales and ornamentations, and it excludes 19th and 20th century French ideas. 18th century European culture has had a significant impact on musical thinking, but so have contemporaneous ideas in other fields.

He then spends time explaining why concepts from white, German, 18th century music theory eg figured bass, aren’t relevant to much of today’s music. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree. We’ve also discarded the phlogiston theory of chemistry.

Where I can agree with him is that confining musical examples to white, German, 18th century composers is restricting. I can also agree about the fallacy of trying to define what is or isn’t music based on one’s own definition of music, with both its personal and cultural preconceptions.

What is worth discussing is the impact of music on society. There was an impact on concert hall design, enabling larger audiences in the era before amplification. The audiences which had the time and money to attend such events brought their own social views and attitudes. Don’t forget that the Promenade concerts were set up to bring music to the wider public, and to break some of those attitudes.

octatonic · September 2020

Roland said:

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

Watch all of it.

Cranky · September 2020

Roland said:

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

18th century Europe might have seen some developments in music theory, as it did in physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics etc. However it does not represent the whole of music theory, for example it excludes Indian scales and ornamentations, and it excludes 19th and 20th century French ideas. 18th century European culture has had a significant impact on musical thinking, but so have contemporaneous ideas in other fields.

He then spends time explaining why concepts from white, German, 18th century music theory eg figured bass, aren’t relevant to much of today’s music. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree. We’ve also discarded the phlogiston theory of chemistry.

Where I can agree with him is that confining musical examples to white, German, 18th century composers is restricting. I can also agree about the fallacy of trying to define what is or isn’t music based on one’s own definition of music, with both its personal and cultural preconceptions.

What is worth discussing is the impact of music on society. There was an impact on concert hall design, enabling larger audiences in the era before amplification. The audiences which had the time and money to attend such events brought their own social views and attitudes. Don’t forget that the Promenade concerts were set up to bring music to the wider public, and to break some of those attitudes.

Yeah, what @octatonic said. You're response here is basically what Neely says . . . but with some interesting history along the way

Roland · September 2020

I did watch it all, as my later comments show, but he blew his credibility with the early statements.

viz · September 2020

I didn’t have time to finish it and will try to later, but I’m just not really sure what the issue is. I mean, the factual information he says is right, as far as my limited knowledge extends, but I can’t quite grasp what point he’s making and to whom. I don’t really recognise what he’s claiming western music theory - or more accurately, people who use it - are trying and failing to do. I think it’s quite a flexible language.

ArchtopDave · September 2020

I agree with @Roland. The definition of Music Theory in this video is woefully inaccurate. Music Theory and Notation existed long before the 18th Century, and has evolved since. If you accept his very limited definition, then some of his arguments are relevant. It's unfair to blame Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven for their sex, date of birth, and place of birth - things which neither they, or indeed we ourselves, have control over. I am not aware of them promoting racism in music.

He also, along the way, chucks in a number of inaccurate statements, such as the Beatles not knowing any Music Theory which is untrue. They certainly quite early on appreciated Intervals, and bothered to go and chat to Mr.Gritty, about the"Gritty Chord" they liked, which was a Ninth. He also flashes up a copy of a substantial book that I own - Tonal Harmony. It runs to 668 pages, of which the last 100 plus pages are devoted to 20th Century music concepts. Its' content is far from being limited to a portion of the 18th Century.

If you have a degree of interest in Music Theory, then you'll likely to be aware, despite his comments to contrary, that other systems of Music Theory exist in the world at large. Even those who profess to know no Theory may be aware that a basic 12 Bar Blues sequence of Seventh Chords does not fit with classic western Music Theory.

Personally, I also do not accept the argument that Music Theory on its' own is racist. The problem is actually with the people, who themselves are racist, using it promote their own racially orientated ideas.
This is no different from the Church in olden days seeing the Flat 5 Interval as the work of the devil, and, that anyone using it, should be severely punished. It's the same problem with Sexism in music, as in other areas of life, it's the attitudes of people that are the problem.

(P.S. I did take the trouble to listen to the whole video, and did note there was a tentative admission toward the end of the video, that Music Theory itself wasn't racist!)

GuyBoden · September 2020

"One Scale to rule them all, One Scale to find them, One Scale to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. In the Land of Music where the Shadows lie." The unbalanced dominance of the Major scale adapted from J.R.R Tolkien

Grunfeld · September 2020

15:51 "The pentatonic scale... [doesn't] have to be performed at certain times of the day."

Well, I'm not so sure about that...

WiresDreamDisasters · September 2020

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

Cranky · September 2020

Fjdjfgkdkfk

octatonic · September 2020

Cranky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

You're going to end up just like him if you don't get some help.

No need for this, frankly.
Families should be off limit no matter how much you dislike a person.

Cranky · September 2020

octatonic said:

Cranky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

You're going to end up just like him if you don't get some help.

No need for this, frankly.
Families should be off limit no matter how much you dislike a person.

Fair enough. I've deleted the relevant part. It was in earnest, either way. This guy needs help.

viz · September 2020

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like.

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

monquixote · September 2020

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like.

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens.

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

viz · September 2020

monquixote said:

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like.

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens.

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

That is excellent. Thank you old bean.

Cranky · September 2020

monquixote said:

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like.

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens.

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

Yeah, and what I thought was interesting was one of the YT comments from someone who claimed to be German and said that Germany's academic music theory was more like what the music professor was clamoring for and had long ago moved on from the "superior culture" approach to music.

WiresDreamDisasters · September 2020

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

WiresDreamDisasters · September 2020

Cranky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

You're going to end up just like him if you don't get some help.

There is a human behind these words. Whatever vitriolic violence tinged stuff you said before your edit, you should have left it in place. Because now not only do you look petty, vindictive, and spiteful. You also look spineless too.

Have a great day!

monquixote · September 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

octatonic · September 2020

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

It isn't just the US, in pretty much all music schools you study music theory from classic perspective, even if you aren't playing classical music.

viz · September 2020

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

It isn't just the US, in pretty much all music schools you study music theory from classic perspective, even if you aren't playing classical music.

I expect that's true, and it's pretty clear, at least I thought it was, that while classical music theory can do well in explaining many types of music, especially ultra-simple music like blues rock (not a criticism, I love it), it is not so good at explaining Indian music based on the 19-note or 31-note scale for example. So it doesn't try to. And people who are studying western music feel no need to.
That's why I think it's a non issue. Snobbery is an issue, but that's not the fault of the music theory, it's the fault of the snobs.

WiresDreamDisasters · September 2020

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

At Middlesex there was huge beef between the sonic arts department and the "real music" department. We'd get constantly told we weren't real musicians or artists by people studying classical and jazz. This isn't a race thing. Musicians are just dead fucking snobby about their particular part of it.

octatonic · September 2020

viz said:

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

It isn't just the US, in pretty much all music schools you study music theory from classic perspective, even if you aren't playing classical music.

I expect that's true, and it's pretty clear, at least I thought it was, that while classical music theory can do well in explaining many types of music, especially ultra-simple music like blues rock (not a criticism, I love it), it is not so good at explaining Indian music based on the 19-note or 31-note scale for example. So it doesn't try to. And people who are studying western music feel no need to.
That's why I think it's a non issue. Snobbery is an issue, but that's not the fault of the music theory, it's the fault of the snobs.

I guess the issue is that western music theory explains classical music and styles of music derived from it very well.
I don't see it so much as snobbery but rather it just isn't equipped to explain non-western art music derived styles.

There is certainly a reluctance in classic circles to explore outside western art music though- that is certainly true.

viz · September 2020

octatonic said:

viz said:

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

It isn't just the US, in pretty much all music schools you study music theory from classic perspective, even if you aren't playing classical music.

I expect that's true, and it's pretty clear, at least I thought it was, that while classical music theory can do well in explaining many types of music, especially ultra-simple music like blues rock (not a criticism, I love it), it is not so good at explaining Indian music based on the 19-note or 31-note scale for example. So it doesn't try to. And people who are studying western music feel no need to.
That's why I think it's a non issue. Snobbery is an issue, but that's not the fault of the music theory, it's the fault of the snobs.

I guess the issue is that western music theory explains classical music and styles of music derived from it very well.
I don't see it so much as snobbery but rather it just isn't equipped to explain non-western art music derived styles.

There is certainly a reluctance in classic circles to explore outside western art music though- that is certainly true.

Agree and agree.

jpfamps · September 2020

monquixote said:

I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

The intervals used in Western music are all integer ratios in frequency, eg octave is 1:2, fifth 2:3, forth 3:4 etc.

This would suggest there is a fundamental mechanism at work here, ie this was waiting to be discovered rather than it was completely invented.

There are also data about use of these intervals in nature, eg birdsong. In fact there are data suggesting that the accuracy of interval production in birdsong confers social status.

Music theory essentially is an exercise in reverse engineering why something works; you certainly do not need to understand music theory to make music, and theory alone won't direct you to write a great piece of music.

A huge body of music theory is common across all genres of Western music; eg the intervals used in chords, and resolution.

In contrast, there is a trend in certain circles of academic thought that generation of knowledge is always culturally situated, and employed to exert power, which seems to be the underlying implication of the video above.

monquixote · September 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:
I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

At Middlesex there was huge beef between the sonic arts department and the "real music" department. We'd get constantly told we weren't real musicians or artists by people studying classical and jazz. This isn't a race thing. Musicians are just dead fucking snobby about their particular part of it.

That's the bit I was struggling with in that video as snob doesn't equal racist although it does seem that the guy who developed that analysis system clearly was a big old racist.

It did get me thinking though if you analyse something like "Higher State of Consciousness" by Josh Wink through a classical lens it's almost non music because pretty much nothing happens in terms of harmonic, or melodic development. All the variation is in timbre.

I know classical musicians who would happily deride it as "non music", but similarly I struggle to listen to a string quartet for a long time because it all just sounds like a string quartet and I'm used to music with lots of dynamic, rhythmic and timbre changes.

A lot of musicians I know can be intimidated by "classically trained" musicians because they are "proper musicians". Once you play with them you realise a lot of them are actually very limited in what they can do. They might play in a pretty good orchestra, but they can't transcribe, improvise and their time and sense of rhythm is quite poor.

WiresDreamDisasters · September 2020

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

monquixote said:
I think given that neither of us have been through the formal music education system in America it's hard to judge how relevant it is.

When I was at university in the late 90's I shared a house with someone who was doing a music degree and had no idea who the Beatles were. Essentially he'd never heard any music that wasn't classical so at least in that example it suggests that my university didn't see other forms of music worthy of study.

I think the question of if music theory is universal like maths or exists within a cultural context is an interesting question and he does make some interesting points on that subject.

At Middlesex there was huge beef between the sonic arts department and the "real music" department. We'd get constantly told we weren't real musicians or artists by people studying classical and jazz. This isn't a race thing. Musicians are just dead fucking snobby about their particular part of it.

That's the bit I was struggling with in that video as snob doesn't equal racist although it does seem that the guy who developed that analysis system clearly was a big old racist.

It did get me thinking though if you analyse something like "Higher State of Consciousness" by Josh Wink through a classical lens it's almost non music because pretty much nothing happens in terms of harmonic, or melodic development. All the variation is in timbre.
I know classical musicians who would happily deride it as "non music", but similarly I struggle to listen to a string quartet for a long time because it all just sounds like a string quartet and I'm used to music with lots of dynamic, rhythmic and timbre changes.

A lot of musicians I know can be intimidated by "classically trained" musicians because they are "proper musicians". Once you play with them you realise a lot of them are actually very limited in what they can do. They might play in a pretty good orchestra, but they can't transcribe, improvise and their time and sense of rhythm is quite poor.

I've recorded enough trained musicians for sample sets to know that whilst their understanding and performance of music can be very good, their understanding of how music is actually made in the modern world can sometimes be quite limited.

Also, they sniff a lot. Not joking. Sniffing is the main thing I've had to RX out of sessions for some reason!! Probably our old cold damp basement studio, heh.

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