Learning to improvise by ear, rather than with scales.

Rocker · August 2020

As I understand music, all of it is based on scales. Of one type or another. Otherwise it is random noise. When you 'hear' a tune in your head and try to play it, your decisions amount to questions like 'is the next note lower or higher than the one I just played?' And you use your judgement to find that note. In doing so, you are playing notes from some scale.

If what I know is wrong 'works' then it can't be all that far wrong. It served me well for around fifty years. And counting.

Blueingreen · September 2020

For me it's a false dichotomy. One way of learning to improvise by ear is by using scales. Noodling with the appropriate mode of the melodic minor scale against a dominant 7 chord in a 2 5 1 will teach you how altered 5ths and 9ths sound in that context. Once you are familiar with these sounds it will be easier to use them when "improvising by ear". It's not the only way of doing it, but it works.

Barquentine · September 2020

hollywoodrox said:

elsmandino said:

Thanks guys - I am slightly confused, however.

Whilst those tips are really useful for helping my improvising to sound more musical, am I not still basing it on scales?

What I really want to be able to do is kind of sing a melody (in my head) over a backing track and then play that melody on the guitar.

Is there any way (other than ear training) to practice that or is it simply the case that it will eventually happen with lots of playing?

The reason I ask - I started out, originally, researching how to make my improvising more melodic.

Whilst there was a lot of advice about modes, phrasing, accidentals (though never came across the pitch axis theory, which sounds really great), a lot of guitarists seem to suggest that playing what you want, rather than what scales dictate, was the key.

Hope that makes sense.

I thought a super fun way to practice is by playing vocal lines from songs ,it’s fun, relatively easy and addictive

When I was first trying to teach myself blues I was lost trying to work out what my guitar heroes were doing. Then I started listening to the vocals and that's when things started to fall into place.

sev112 · September 2020

DrJazzTap said:

Three things that really helped me

2) Scat singing, really develops your ear. Granted you might feel like a bit of a knobhead, and its not something i do outside the house.

^ this
i do it in two ways
first sing a riff then try to replicate it in the next phrase

then sing and play at the same time

just doing those over a scale or pentatonic really makes quick steps forward

Danny1969 · September 2020

I think one of the things that hold back guitarist more than other muso's is a lot of guitarist learn to solo by playing shapes rather than bothering to learn where all the notes are, what intervals make which scales and how to apply that to solo's.

To be able to play instantly something you hear in your head isn't hard if you follow these basic rules.

Learn where every note is on the fretboard.

Learn how to make the major and minor scales using the basic formulas of Tone, Tone, Semi etc or Tone, Semi etc

That alone is enough to keep you in key when solo'ing and will also allow you to transpose keys easily.

Then if you want to instantly play what you hear in your head you need to be able to recognise the intervals between notes. If you can recognise the move from one note to another as an interval you can apply it straight onto notes as you solo. When teaching I turn my back on the student and start on a given root note, then the student has to name the interval I've moved to such as a minor 3rd or 5th etc. In this way they quickly learn how these intervals sound and because they know all the notes on the fretboard they can easily start to play what they hear in their head directly on the fretboard.
I've got a 13 year old student doing this very well at the moment but he had to learn the fretboard first and the formula for building scales first. Once that was done moving forward is easy.

Sometimes I think certain things like tab and YT videos, being told to play pentatonic shapes and CAGED etc actually makes something that's actually very simple more complicated then it really is. I'm really glad I learnt to play in an age where there was none of that.

viz · September 2020

Danny1969 said:

I think one of the things that hold back guitarist more than other muso's is a lot of guitarist learn to solo by playing shapes rather than bothering to learn where all the notes are, what intervals make which scales and how to apply that to solo's.

To be able to play instantly something you hear in your head isn't hard if you follow these basic rules.

Learn where every note is on the fretboard.

Learn how to make the major and minor scales using the basic formulas of Tone, Tone, Semi etc or Tone, Semi etc

That alone is enough to keep you in key when solo'ing and will also allow you to transpose keys easily.

Then if you want to instantly play what you hear in your head you need to be able to recognise the intervals between notes. If you can recognise the move from one note to another as an interval you can apply it straight onto notes as you solo. When teaching I turn my back on the student and start on a given root note, then the student has to name the interval I've moved to such as a minor 3rd or 5th etc. In this way they quickly learn how these intervals sound and because they know all the notes on the fretboard they can easily start to play what they hear in their head directly on the fretboard.
I've got a 13 year old student doing this very well at the moment but he had to learn the fretboard first and the formula for building scales first. Once that was done moving forward is easy.

Sometimes I think certain things like tab and YT videos, being told to play pentatonic shapes and CAGED etc actually makes something that's actually very simple more complicated then it really is. I'm really glad I learnt to play in an age where there was none of that.

Sooooo true

mgaw · September 2020

/\ great suggestion one thing that can get overlooked in all this chat.....play from the heart and make those notes mean something...thats way more important in my mind

brooom · September 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1UZhiZMYw

GuyBoden · September 2020

brooom said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1UZhiZMYw

Yes, great stuff, an excellent example of learning how to improvise without using patterns and licks.

tanihhiavlt · September 2020

Hands up who learned the alphabet (especially the order) before learning to speak? I didn't - I still don't know what a split infinitive is either. It has somehow, not crippled my eloquence or ability to communi-cake (nor your ability to understand).

I can probably go a whole day without using the letters Q and Z - so maybe all letters aren't created equal? (Professional Quiz contestants and Quiz Masters YMMV)

If I can go whole days without using letters, can I go a whole song without using certain notes? I think so - pedagogical music books (like all manuals) provide equal coverage on all topics - but it can be misleading. Some notes are just grace-notes.

I don't think you need to know where every note is on the fretboard, to quote my youngest son, when he was six as we jokingly tested his near perfect pitch "it's the note between G and A, I haven't learnt that one yet.". It's good to know them, but a lot of our heroes hung out on a handful frets... and get this - if you know one double octave scale (any of the CAGED patterns) - you've got as many notes as Miles Davis has on a trumpet... he never struggled for more notes.

Improvisation is about providing a narrative that leads people through a progression possibly pointing out great interactions or motifs - seems to me that has more to do with idioms, licks, patterns, and all the shit that sticks in your amygdala. Which is great news for you and the people following your solo too (unless they're what Theodore W. Adornos called 'jealous listeners' - they're not here to be entertained) . I think if you want to improvise you'll need to find and learn a lot of stuff you like listening to.

100% of mammals experience stress and excitement in the same way - to some degree the frontal cortex is shut down - which is where "yer book learnin' lives boy!". Experience may reduce the extent this happens but if you haven't nailed it into "muscle memory" it will not help you at this point. Let's call it "The crunch".

Improvisation is chunked information (this bit) and (this bit) but in the style of (that bit) - there is not time to deconstruct page 71 of Reg Smith Brindles book or Slonimsky's waddyamacallit when the singer or trumpet player nods at you to take a solo - early solos were simply variations on the main melody - and this is still a good place to start creating original lines from.

I think good improvisation is identified by it's sensitivity to the music, melody and harmony, rhythm, personalities of the different parts and you get that by exploring the song. Jazz standards are templates people can go and woodshed. If you want to hear improvisation listen to Tommy Flanagan's piano solo on Giant Steps - that is someone thinking on their feet! (Coltrane practised it for 3 months and on the day shoved the music under the bands nose in the recording studio - apparently)

What we think of Music Theory are generalisations and systems taken from their habitat/context, given a narrative (often in the absence of rhythm). They're observations, sometimes low-res'd by acquisitive zeal and the need to anonymize the source of inspiration. The difference is comparable to being "good boyfriend material" or a pick-up artist.

If good artists steal - you can bet your ass their stealing lick and patterns - timing makes a big difference.

viz · September 2020

GuyBoden said:

brooom said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1UZhiZMYw

Yes, great stuff, an excellent example of learning how to improvise without using patterns and licks.

This is exactly what I try and teach in melody-writing. Just play a chord, listen to it, sing what tickles your fancy, then play it, with your eyes closed. Closing your eyes helps you hear, think, and memorise. You don’t need to look at the keyboard, it confuses things.

Lestratcaster · September 2020

Always have a harmony (i.e. backing track) behind what you're playing. Otherwise the notes you play have no value against a chord. For example, if you play a C on the fretboard, it could be a root, a minor 3rd, a flat 5, anything. Unless you play it over a chord sequence then it has little meaning.

Just get used to how notes sound against the backing, does it need to go up, down, faster, slower etc. Rhythmical variation is good, pick 2-3 notes and then change the beat the phrase start on, usually most start on 4 or 1. But they can begin anywhere.
It must be just as much feel and heart as theory and getting the notes right etc.

thing · October 2020

I always get my studes to recognise intervals as early as possible. It's surprising how even seven and eight year olds can do it if you make it fun. Just pick seven songs which have the opening two notes as one of the major scale intervals. 'Somewhere Over The Rainbow = octave etc. I then play/sing a very simple melody line and get them to repeat it after giving them the start note. 95% of the time they get it straight away.

The added bonus of all of this is that they can then tune their guitar by ear instead of using a bloody electronic tuner cos they can hear fourths an thirds.

I think the reason some guitarists who have started playing say in the last twenty years or so struggle with improv by ear is that they've never had to use their ears. It's all on a plate. That's not a a criticism, it's just the way it is.

Music is a listening skill.

Greatape · November 2020

octatonic said:

There is a great technique I use that I stole from John Maclaughlin which is to repeat the same phrase 4 times but each time repeating the last note one more time.

Say it is a 3 note phrase:

C D F

Play it like this:

CDF
CDFF
CDFFF
CDFFFF

With a small gap between the 4 lines, as to mark that they are distinct phrases.

Or this:

CDF
CDFF
CDF
CDFFFC

Play some of the ideas across a different octave.
Or play it a 5th up.
Or a semitone up.
Wring its neck.

The big mistake people make is to not develop ideas fully.
You play a line and then it goes away, never to be developed or repeated or extended.
Scott Henderson taught me to develop simple ideas fully, get as much mileage as you can out of what you already know.

This last bit is gold. Tell the story. Develop the motif. And play what you know, better.

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Learning to improvise by ear, rather than with scales.

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