What classical guitar should I look for?

TheBigDipper · July 2020

So, in lockdown, I've found myself playing some old classical pieces on my 0-16NY (wide, classical-style flat fretboard) and really enjoying it. To the point where I've decided to buy my first classical guitar for 40+ years.

My last classical guitar was a £40 Yairi I bought from Ivor Mairant himself in 1970 at the tender age of 12. I played quite seriously at that age (RCM on Saturdays) and never even touched an electric until I was 17.

Budget is up to £750 if it knocks my socks off, but I'd be happier spending half that. I don't need a pickup nor will I be playing recitals - it's just for personal pleasure. I have a case to keep it in (at home, at least) if it doesn't come with one. I'm not against crossover guitars as long as the tone is good and the playing experience is right.

EDIT: One final thing or two - I'm very likely to prefer a cedar top to spruce for this one. Generally sound a bit smoother and I like the look. All my steel-strung acoustics are spruce tops, so I'd like a change. I'm not looking for a Flamenco guitar with its more robust top and less sweet tones.

OK, you classical players and acoustic specialists out there... What should I be looking at and why? I will be travelling to shops to audition instruments. Where would you recommend I should go?

Over to the might of tFB classical division... :-)

octatonic · July 2020

Do you want traditional classical nut width or something more friendly for electric players?

ToneControl · July 2020

Buy used
second hand classicals are often stupidly cheap, especially tradition non-cutaway models
Buy a Spanish brand, check the model against new prices. If you can get a £1500+ for £750, it should be just what you want. I have done this myself

TheBigDipper · July 2020

octatonic said:

Do you want traditional classical nut width or something more friendly for electric players?

I've already got an 0-16NY, which is a Martin parlour guitar with a 12 fret flat radius neck and a classical-width nut. So I'm comfy with that, but open to trying a crossover classical (it's a thing, apparently) with a slight radius or narrower nut. But I'm not looking for an "electric friendly" guitar.

TheBigDipper · July 2020

ToneControl said:

Buy used
second hand classicals are often stupidly cheap, especially tradition non-cutaway models
Buy a Spanish brand, check the model against new prices. If you can get a £1500+ for £750, it should be just what you want. I have done this myself

Indeed. I've no idea what a good £1500 classical guitar vs a bad one would be, though. I'm totally out of touch in this market. What did you buy, out of interest?

If anyone can suggest a good guitar selling for £1500 brand new, I'd appreciate knowing so I can scope my search a bit better.

hassleham · July 2020

They get a lot of classicals at the Gardiner Houlgate auction in Bath, which is a good place to try out and compare a load of them across a wide range of values. That's if they're allowing people to physically examine guitars at the next auction though!

KKJale · July 2020

Feel free to drift into the classifieds and eye my cedar top Rodriguez...

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/163406/fs-rodriguez-model-a-classical-as-new#latest

ToneControl · July 2020

TheBigDipper said:

ToneControl said:

Buy used
second hand classicals are often stupidly cheap, especially tradition non-cutaway models
Buy a Spanish brand, check the model against new prices. If you can get a £1500+ for £750, it should be just what you want. I have done this myself

Indeed. I've no idea what a good £1500 classical guitar vs a bad one would be, though. I'm totally out of touch in this market. What did you buy, out of interest?

If anyone can suggest a good guitar selling for £1500 brand new, I'd appreciate knowing so I can scope my search a bit better.

just get familiar with these brands and model numbers:
https://www.classicalguitar.co.uk/onlinestore/classical_guitars_guitars_above_1000.html

Raimundo, Almansa, Contreras, Ramirez (the Gibson/Fender of these names)

I suspect people buy a decent guitar, to learn from scratch, then give up

ToneControl · July 2020

TheBigDipper said:

octatonic said:

Do you want traditional classical nut width or something more friendly for electric players?

I've already got an 0-16NY, which is a Martin parlour guitar with a 12 fret flat radius neck and a classical-width nut. So I'm comfy with that, but open to trying a crossover classical (it's a thing, apparently) with a slight radius or narrower nut. But I'm not looking for an "electric friendly" guitar.

I bought an excellent crossover one, but as someone experienced with a real classical, I did not like it. Strings too close, and also not as responsive as a lightweight classical

Devil#20 · July 2020

Here you go.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nickelodeon-Spongebob-Squarepants-Model-SBJGOFT-Classical-Guitar/184372125442?hash=item2aed6f5f02:g:JrIAAOSwHr9fF3pS

TheBigDipper · July 2020

Devil#20 said:

Here you go.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nickelodeon-Spongebob-Squarepants-Model-SBJGOFT-Classical-Guitar/184372125442?hash=item2aed6f5f02:g:JrIAAOSwHr9fF3pS

Too kind.

Do you think they'll throw in a set of strings?

Nogoodboyo · July 2020

If its for classical pieces I would try Juan Hernandez, Camps or Paco Castillo either new within your price range, or preferably a used higher model

eoinzy · July 2020

-

TheBigDipper · July 2020

Thanks, folks. Keep it coming if you can - I'm starting to visit people and play some things as of next week.

maltingsaudio · July 2020

Recently scored one of these from Mansons secondhand for about £500 and fallen in love with it
https://reverb.com/uk/item/33197792-martinez-mscc-14-ovangkol?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=1726164661&merchant_id=112510346&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9b6m8N6Y6gIV1YBQBh0uGAmSEAQYAyABEgIQHvD_BwE

its been along time since I bought classical strings bit shocked at the cost £22 for Savarez high tension !

ArchtopDave · July 2020

maltingsaudio said:

Recently scored one of these from Mansons secondhand for about £500 and fallen in love with it
https://reverb.com/uk/item/33197792-martinez-mscc-14-ovangkol?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=1726164661&merchant_id=112510346&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9b6m8N6Y6gIV1YBQBh0uGAmSEAQYAyABEgIQHvD_BwE

its been along time since I bought classical strings bit shocked at the cost £22 for Savarez high tension !

A couple of years ago, I paid to have a piano restrung. If you ever do that, then you realise guitar strings cost peanuts.

domforr · July 2020

I was going through the same process a few months ago and it's not easy to navigate with so many brands out there. I finally settled on an old Japanese Matano 600 which I'm very happy with. So don't rule out the old japanese guitars from the 70's and 80's as they are very good value for money and are very well built. Something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ryojo-Matsuoka-M60-Classical-Guitar-including-hard-shell-case-1-owner/264697488750?hash=item3da133256e%3Ag%3AdqsAAOSwWapekuso&LH_ItemCondition=3000

domforr · July 2020

I was going through the same process a few months ago and it's not easy to navigate with so many brands out there. I finally settled on an old Japanese Matano 600 which I'm very happy with. So don't rule out the old japanese guitars from the 70's and 80's as they are very good value for money and are very well built. Something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ryojo-Matsuoka-M60-Classical-Guitar-including-hard-shell-case-1-owner/264697488750?hash=item3da133256e%3Ag%3AdqsAAOSwWapekuso&LH_ItemCondition=3000

Apologies for double post!

ToneControl · July 2020

maltingsaudio said:

Recently scored one of these from Mansons secondhand for about £500 and fallen in love with it
https://reverb.com/uk/item/33197792-martinez-mscc-14-ovangkol?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=1726164661&merchant_id=112510346&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9b6m8N6Y6gIV1YBQBh0uGAmSEAQYAyABEgIQHvD_BwE

its been along time since I bought classical strings bit shocked at the cost £22 for Savarez high tension !

you have to shop around for these strings, but the best are expensive

a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

digitalkettle · July 2020

ToneControl said:
a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

ToneControl · July 2020

digitalkettle said:

ToneControl said:
a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

that's one way, I just use double the number of twists

drofluf · July 2020

ToneControl said:

digitalkettle said:

ToneControl said:
a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

that's one way, I just use double the number of twists

Or you could use Bridgebeads like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diamond-BridgeBeads-Classical-Guitar-String/dp/B00G7RHR9W. Haven’t tried them with carbon strings, or carbon strings at all. What’s the benefit of them?

ToneControl · July 2020

drofluf said:

ToneControl said:

digitalkettle said:

ToneControl said:
a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

that's one way, I just use double the number of twists

Or you could use Bridgebeads like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diamond-BridgeBeads-Classical-Guitar-String/dp/B00G7RHR9W. Haven’t tried them with carbon strings, or carbon strings at all. What’s the benefit of them?

Carbon strings are very popular, John Williams uses them, they have less of a mid-heavy sound, with more definition (especially with my lattice-braced classicals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWrO0UMe9rM

TheBigDipper · July 2020

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar.

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

ToneControl · July 2020

TheBigDipper said:

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar.

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

Just looked it up, sounds like your 0-16 NY guitar nut is 1 7/8 inches
standard classicals are 2 inches

High action is normal on classicals, the strings are lower tension, and I think vibrate more, and also don't sound as out of tune as you'd expect when fretted with the high action.

Probably best to go for a crossover if you would prefer not to adapt your style

I saw a high end crossover for £1500 last week, mostly geared to plugged-in playing, but I think your budget is lower.

Does your Martin have a flat fingerboard, or a slight radius like steel strung acoustics?

TheBigDipper · July 2020

ToneControl said:

TheBigDipper said:

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar.

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

Just looked it up, sounds like your 0-16 NY guitar nut is 1 7/8 inches
standard classicals are 2 inches
- Yes. The Martin is 1 7/8in nut, 1 5/8in string to string. It's been a while since I played a "proper" classical, and I'm no longer convinced I want to play anything with quite that high an action when everything else I play is so different.

High action is normal on classicals, the strings are lower tension, and I think vibrate more, and also don't sound as out of tune as you'd expect when fretted with the high action.
- Indeed.

Probably best to go for a crossover if you would prefer not to adapt your style
- Feels like I don't. Of course, I might totally flip/flop back after trying a few crossovers or "modern classicals".

I saw a high end crossover for £1500 last week, mostly geared to plugged-in playing, but I think your budget is lower.
- My budget IS lower, but that's never stopped me if something just blows me away. I'll be playing above my budget (and already have) just to see what you get for a bit more dosh. But plugged-in playing is not a priority - the nylon-string sound is.

Does your Martin have a flat fingerboard, or a slight radius like steel strung acoustics?
- It feels flat, but a radius gauge shows me it's actually 20in radius underneath the strings at the bridge, possibly a slightly flatter fretboard, didn't check any frets.

Some comments from me are inline, but I appreciate your interest and your suggestions/comments. Don't stop, ta!

ToneControl · July 2020

OK, there is an Avalon crossover going very cheap, £1500, should be £3k+ new
I had one, acoustic sound was not as loud as £6k classicals (since it has stiffer bracing to reduce feedback),
played lovely as a crossover, but decided not my thing, prefer 2 inch nuts with higher action ;-)

GTC · July 2020

The La Patrie (Godin) range could be worth a look for both normal classicals and crossovers. The higher end all-solid models would fit within your budget new.

I had the base Etude classical model and was mightily impressed with the tone, build quality and appearance. The nut width is 2" but the neck profile and the slightly (24") radiussed fretboard make them feel much more comfortable for a steel-strung player than a conventional classical. I liked the neck profile so much that I got Brook to do something very similar with a custom classical Cary model which I collected from Devon yesterday (NGD coming soon).

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

TheBigDipper · July 2020

GTC said:

The La Patrie (Godin) range could be worth a look for both normal classicals and crossovers. The higher end all-solid models would fit within your budget new.

I had the base Etude classical model and was mightily impressed with the tone, build quality and appearance. The nut width is 2" but the neck profile and the slightly (24") radiussed fretboard make them feel much more comfortable for a steel-strung player than a conventional classical. I liked the neck profile so much that I got Brook to do something very similar with a custom classical Cary model which I collected from Devon yesterday (NGD coming soon).

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

Thanks. They're already on my list, but it's nice to know you liked yours. I'm popping over to Project Music in a week or so - they're waiting for some Cordobas to come in on Monday, and have a couple of La Patrie in at the mo. Once the Cordobas arrive I'll have enough reason to drive 2 hours each way to Exeter and visit them (and Mansons, and the new 2nd-hand shop).

I love my Taw. If I had the money, I'd ask Brook to build me a nylon-strung guitar - but I don't!

TBH, it wasn't the nut width that I've found an unpleasant surprise, more the high action. I need to remind myself that I had stopped playing classical before I started playing steel-strung acoustics or electrics, so I'd never been able to compare them. If you go up the neck on a classical, then a full or partial barre will bring the action down - but I also play open strings with high-fretted notes on some tunes and can't barre to do that. It feels weird.

drofluf · July 2020

GTC said:

<snip>

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

That was probably me, I do tend to bang on about it

@TheBigDipper just measured the action on mine, it’s about 2.25mm on the low E if that’s any help.

GTC · July 2020

I haven't got it any more so I can't measure it - but I was able to bring the low E action down to under 2.5mm on the La Patrie Etude just by lowering the saddle without any issues. Out of the box, the action will be much higher though.

I much preferred the much cheaper La Patrie Etude to the considerably more expensive luthier series Cordoba C10 I once had. I've also had two Cordoba crossover guitars and found them unbalanced in tone and very "boomy" on the lower strings.

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What classical guitar should I look for?

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