Grooveboxes

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

Hey guys

Quite fancy a little groovebox, know there's a few fans here.

In the past I've owned a Volca:Samples but it didn't do it for me. Now I've got a Novation Circuit but for some reason I've never bonded with it - i think the drum tracks never really worked for me and the synth engine always seems too random, I can never work out how to get the sounds I want.

A few new releases have caught my eye - Roland MC 101 looks pretty good but the workflow seems pretty painful. I quite like the look of the Model:Cycles though...

Obviously someone will say Digitakt but I don't think I want to spend that money.

Thoughts?

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

Paging @jackio for his Cycles experience... :-)

WiresDreamDisasters · June 2020

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Strangefan · June 2020

I had a models cycles, I sold it on within a month. I didn't enjoy it at all, lots of secondary button presses, and menus, I had a mpc live for 2 years truly brillaint but again a learning curve, but very musical.

I also had a teenage engineering op 1 and an opz the op1 truly brillaint work Flow when you get your head around but, but soooo brash and harsh sounding, it was very hard to get anything warm out of it.

The opz honestly brillaint, lovely sounds, and great work flow, I definately regret selling that one!

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

WiresDreamDisasters · June 2020

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

danishbacon · June 2020

Having owned Maschine MK1,2&3 as well as Push 2, I think Maschine MK3 is an excellent tool, comes packed with useful stuff out of the box, very nice to sample with and has a nice (to me) workflow.

chotu495 · June 2020

Digitakt.

I have a volka drum too, and it makes the digitakt look like good value.

Yes, it was a bit daunting to take the plunge, but it is just ace. Never regretted it, and never selling.

goldtop · June 2020

How deep do you want it to be? MPC Live/One are a lot of fun and easy once you "get it". Do you want to sample and chop? That's the biggest decision to make.

If not, the left-field and affordable choice would be a used Roland JD-Xi. It's an analogue+digital synth with a groovebox built-in, and the X0X drum and key-based programming is so easy. It looks toy-like, but with there's a lot in there (see the JD-Xi Manager app to see).

Fuengi · June 2020

I use the Volca Sample on live mode and record straight into a looper without the sequencer which is limited. I use an A/B switch permanently on my board to make this easy to add guitar or drum / sample parts. Sometimes I just use my stomp box.

For me it's less about what I use than how I use it.

octatonic · June 2020

UnclePsychosis said:

Hey guys

Quite fancy a little groovebox, know there's a few fans here.

In the past I've owned a Volca:Samples but it didn't do it for me. Now I've got a Novation Circuit but for some reason I've never bonded with it - i think the drum tracks never really worked for me and the synth engine always seems too random, I can never work out how to get the sounds I want.

A few new releases have caught my eye - Roland MC 101 looks pretty good but the workflow seems pretty painful. I quite like the look of the Model:Cycles though...

Obviously someone will say Digitakt but I don't think I want to spend that money.

Thoughts?

I wasn't sure I was going to write a reply to this because I didn't want to sound like an asshole so take anything I've got to say here with a grain of salt but this is, in my opinion, what is going on.

I see this a lot and I see people trying to buy/trade their way out of it and it never really works, because the problem isn't what the technology can or cannot do but rather how you interface with it and the choices you make.
I don't mean 'you' and in you, I mean you as in 'one'.

Creating loops and grooves with step sequencers is inherently limiting.
It is supposed to be because a completely open sequencer, like you get in a DAW, means any options are available to you and sometimes people get paralysed with options.

If you want more options to be able to get specifically what you want then use a DAW.
If you want something limited to 8/16/32/64 steps when use some for of step sequencers but they will pretty much all work the same way, except for Elektron, which has the additional flexibility of parameter locking and conditional trigs, which allows you to break out of some of the limitations of step sequencer workflow.

I will once again post this- which is the best advice for anyone working with technology to achieve something musical.

Watch it- it is absolutely worth it.

Applying what is in that video to a hardware workflow- you need to get out of your own way and really into the device, "bend it to your will".
You will eventually hit the limitations of the device, you are supposed to, otherwise you are better off using a DAW.

I'm sorry but I don't accept 'I didn't bond with it' as a valid reason for anything.
This might sound harsh- I don't mean it to be- but I've also been there, blaming the gear when the truth is it comes down to 'me' and the choices I make with it.

Selling a piece of gear because you can't make it do what you want it to means you jump to a new piece of gear and you reset the clock, learn the rudiments of a new piece of tech without ever really refining your workflow enough for your use of it to express your musical ideas, you get frustrated again and the same thing happens.

Sit down with the devices you have or the device you buy next and promise yourself that you won't bail on the device until you're happy with what you're able to create with it.

I'm not putting myself out here as the "God of all knowledge" when it comes to synths and drum machines, but I have had some of the same issues when it comes to making the tech do that you want. It is a very common problem and the coping mechanisms people have to make themselves feel better about not achieving their goals (buy/sell/buy/sell) doesn't help resolve the central issues, which are 'how good are my ideas and how do I realise them?'.

Here is something I made, mostly with step sequencers and synths:

There is a lot of Access Virus in there, and some Moog, but a lot of it is just cut up samples thrown into various step sequencers and eventually thrown together in a DAW in a collage-like methodology.
If you have any specific questions about how I made it then just ask.

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

That does look cool.

It did make me wonder if I'd just be better off investing the time in learning Ableton Live properly instead. I don't really need the portability or performance features of MPC...

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

Thanks for the advice @octatonic ;

I think you're right that gear isn't really the answer. Fairly sure that I should spend more time with Ableton Live (I've got whatever the cheapy cutdown version is called).

Fairly sure I'm going to sell the Circuit, if I'm not using it is just taking up space.

Strangefan · June 2020

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

Fretwired · June 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

The NI Maschine range could be worth checking out - I have one - dead easy to use and feature packed. You can create and arrange a whole track on one.

The Maschine Micro is only £199 ... all the units work with NI Komplete. Some good deals on at the moment.

Deals: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/specials/summer-of-sound-2020/hardware-offers/#c943601

octatonic · June 2020

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

The Maschine Mikro plus a DAW looks like it would be perfect to be honest - I think it's the right mix of hardware for triggering things and computer for the details and sequencing. Thanks @Fretwired ;

Digitakt looks great but its just a bit much to spend right now.

WiresDreamDisasters · June 2020

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

That does look cool.

It did make me wonder if I'd just be better off investing the time in learning Ableton Live properly instead. I don't really need the portability or performance features of MPC...

Ah okay, so you've got Live? Then maybe you'd wanna look at getting a Push2 instead then? Gives you tons of hands on flexibility, and you can treat it as a basic sequencer if you want, or you can go hogwild recording in automation envelopes and different scenes and what not.

I think Jim is right though - you do need to spend time with this stuff and really commit to learning it through and through. I had a Digitakt btw and it isn't what I would call "intuitive".

Strangefan · June 2020

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Yup I see what your saying, but money for toys to beable to buy buy buy isn't so free flowing for most, so for a lot Inc me it's one item in one item out,,

octatonic · June 2020

Strangefan said:

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Yup I see what your saying, but money for toys to beable to buy buy buy isn't so free flowing for most, so for a lot Inc me it's one item in one item out,,

Sure, I'm not saying that (buy buy buy) is the way to do it either though- you end up with a load of stuff that is basically furniture.
Some of these devices are so deep that you can spend years learning their full capabilities.

One or two pieces of gear + a DAW (for pencil, eraser, scissors, as per the Ill gates vid) is all you really need.
Learn them, master them, make stuff with them and stay focussed on the big picture, which is finishing music.

WiresDreamDisasters · June 2020

That's a great video Jim, 13minutes into it and already got ideas for changing my workflow. Thanks for posting.

octatonic · June 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

That's a great video Jim, 13minutes into it and already got ideas for changing my workflow. Thanks for posting.

No worries- I've posted it before.
Frankly it was life changing for me.

danishbacon · June 2020

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Tacking on to what @octatonic has said, the only way I learned how to use Maschine and even begin exploring its potential (never mind vsts) was digging into the germanic manual, page by page, exercise by excercise.

octatonic · June 2020

danishbacon said:

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does.
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc,
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Tacking on to what @octatonic has said, the only way I learned how to use Maschine and even begin exploring its potential (never mind vsts) was digging into the germanic manual, page by page, exercise by excercise.

Yep, this is the way to do it.
I keep a list of tasks in paper notebook.

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye?

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

That does look cool.

It did make me wonder if I'd just be better off investing the time in learning Ableton Live properly instead. I don't really need the portability or performance features of MPC...

Ah okay, so you've got Live? Then maybe you'd wanna look at getting a Push2 instead then? Gives you tons of hands on flexibility, and you can treat it as a basic sequencer if you want, or you can go hogwild recording in automation envelopes and different scenes and what not.

I think Jim is right though - you do need to spend time with this stuff and really commit to learning it through and through. I had a Digitakt btw and it isn't what I would call "intuitive".

I have Live Lite, which taught me that I rather liked Ableton but I remember now there were things I wanted to do that I couldn't without the more complete versions.

Once the kids stop harrassing me about Lego I'm going to watch more Maschine videos but I think its far more up my street than the Circuit was (which is a great unit btw). @octatonic is totally right that the problem is me more than the gear but with hindsight the Circuit isn't aimed at what I want to do, really.

octatonic · June 2020

UnclePsychosis said:

I have Live Lite, which taught me that I rather liked Ableton but I remember now there were things I wanted to do that I couldn't without the more complete versions.

Once the kids stop harrassing me about Lego I'm going to watch more Maschine videos but I think its far more up my street than the Circuit was (which is a great unit btw). @octatonic is totally right that the problem is me more than the gear but with hindsight the Circuit isn't aimed at what I want to do, really.

I don't know if this helps or not but it isn't just you- we all go through it.
Imposing your will on a piece of dumb technology that has its own limitations is really, really tough.

I look at it as an instrument in itself and in all honesty it is only the last couple of years I've felt like I am on top of it.
There are countless times over the last 30 or so years of doing this where I've wanted to throw things in the trash and go and do something else.

Here are a few points I accept as true for the purposes of how I work with technology- I realise some of these contradict others.

1. My first idea is generally my best idea.
2. If I stop for a break I have to realise I might be stopping any further development of that idea permanently.
3. If in doubt, pick up a pen and paper.
4. If still in doubt, sing it to yourself, then notate the singing and build the harmony from there.
5. Don't try to learn a piece of technology and write a song at the same time.
6. Adding a distorted thing makes the clean things sound more clean.
7. Adding a clean thing in makes the distorted things more distorted.
8. If I'm not humming it later that day then it probably sucked.
9. Overworking something is sure way to choke the life out of it. You aren't making it better, you are just making it different.
10. You don't really finish anything- you give up on it.

Fretwired · June 2020

danishbacon said:

Tacking on to what @octatonic has said, the only way I learned how to use Maschine and even begin exploring its potential (never mind vsts) was digging into the germanic manual, page by page, exercise by excercise.

Eh? I leaned the basics in one hour on YouTube and then improved from there. I didn't bother with the manual. There's so much good content online. And if you want in in-depth course Groove 3 do one for about £10.

This guy has a whole course on line .. part one:

danishbacon · June 2020

Fretwired said:

danishbacon said:

Tacking on to what @octatonic has said, the only way I learned how to use Maschine and even begin exploring its potential (never mind vsts) was digging into the germanic manual, page by page, exercise by excercise.

Eh? I leaned the basics in one hour on YouTube and then improved from there. I didn't bother with the manual. There's so much good content online. And if you want in in-depth course Groove 3 do one for about £10.

Tried videos, in depth course but find it cumbersome to learn through video, holding a piece of gear and sometimes having to look at DAW/Maschine at the same time. A lot of the videos I've seen (even in depth ones) don't go in-depth as the manual does. Functional, sure, and much more of a quick start approach. Maschine manual is about 1k pages and the 'quick start' guide something like 300 pages. I suppose it's just a matter of learning styles, but given the complexity of the thing, I enjoy getting to know its ins and outs and find the manual to be a very clear and well written, step by step path that teaches and ingrains through practice a lot of very cool little tips.

octatonic · June 2020

I also prefer reading manuals to following along to videos.

There is a trick I figured out with e-manuals which is to have two copies open. One for following in sequential page order and another for flitting between pages.
It is really good for complicated devices like Elektron boxes or Deluge, MPC etc.

UnclePsychosis · June 2020

I have to confess to killing trees by printing manuals out, but two copies at once is a good idea.

For anyone following the saga I went for a Maschine Mikro, gets me the hardware immediacy of the Mikro with the DAW capabilities of Maschine. Intention is to try and learn them both inside out.

WiresDreamDisasters · June 2020

I was gonna buy gear, but then I thought fuck it, and paid my credit card off

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