Piano is hard

TheOtherDennis · April 2020

Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect it to be easy. I completely expected it to be bloody difficult.

But after sailing through the bits about where to put my fingers and where the notes are on the keyboard, I've hit the part about getting my hands to play together. And it's all coming horribly unstuck.

Doing two different things with my hands accurately at the same time in this way is really hard. I've been stuck on the same lesson for several days now, but I'm getting there. I'm now just not very good at it, instead of completely unable to do it.

I'm also finding reading the music accurately (ie translating the notes on a stave to keys under my fingers) really hard, too. Putting it all together in a way that sounds like something approaching music is a bugger.

I now understand why kids struggle so much, and it's easier for them.

rolls1392 · April 2020

I'm also dabbling with learning piano.
I think doing different things with both hands is the hardest bit.
Just gotta keep bashing away I think.

thecolourbox · April 2020

There are other drills you can do away from the piano to help. Try stirring liquid with one hand whilst tapping the worktop with the other.

Musicwolf · April 2020

Although I've dabbled with keyboards for decades I got myself a digital piano for the first time towards the end of last year and decided to give it a serious go (although I've lapsed). I found the two hands thing a bit difficult at first but stick with it, it will come. I've even got the sustain pedal working (in the beginning I was almost using it like a kick drum pedal).

Musicwolf · April 2020

thecolourbox said:

There are other drills you can do away from the piano to help. Try stirring liquid with one hand whilst tapping the worktop with the other.

And if it doesn't help your piano playing it should enable you to fly a helicopter

Whistler · April 2020

TheOtherDennis said:

Doing two different things with my hands accurately at the same time in this way is really hard.

Are you a guitar player? Yea, I thought so. Two hand coordination can be learned, with lots of practice, and you have proved that you are capable on one instrument so a second one only requires time. Don't rush it; it will come.

thecolourbox · April 2020

It's a bit like driving with the pedals in your car, it will become second nature. Bear in mind unless you're starting off with really difficult pieces, the right hand will almost always be playing the most intricate and interesting parts, so plenty of separate practice to get that part down by itself will help I think

DiscoStu · April 2020

This is exactly where I became stuck with piano. Guitar is fine, playing independently with each hand, but as soon as I turn my left hand upside down to play piano...

vasselmeyer · April 2020

I found the same thing when I had some time out of a band and started learning proper fingerpicking guitar with some Country Blues lessons by Stefan Grossman. Getting the right-hand thumb and fingers moving independantly rather than just bashing away with a pick felt impossible at first but there are repeatable exercises that help get muscle memory formed.

Good pianists amaze me, even more than good drummers who get both hands and feed moving in an independant yet co-ordinated way.

AK99 · April 2020

When I was first learning I found playing scales two handed helped.

Try playing the scale of C (major) with the left and right hands - an octave apart obviously - at the same time.

Once you've got that cracked then play the scale with the left hand starting at Middle C only descending, and the right hand starting on the same Middle C note, but ascending. (Easier to do than it is to describe I suspect). Get those two working together in parallel and you've started making inroads into getting both hands working together - and independently

TheOtherDennis · April 2020

Yeah, I know, I just need to practise more. I bought the piano fully expecting to be locked down for weeks on end, but I've not had any extra time off at all. So I've not had the time I expected.

Yes, I am a guitarist, and playing fingerstyle is something I was able to do. I've forgotten most of the pieces I used to learn, but I was able to learn them. Yet piano has been a much bigger struggle for me.

And the Rocket Piano course I have has lots of scale exercises of that sort, I just need to force myself to find the time to get doing them.

Which I think is my biggest problem, really, as it was with the guitar - finding the time to practise properly.

ROOG · April 2020

Interesting, learning to play the organ introduces other challenges, such as playing the bass line with your left foot and modulating the swell pedal with your right foot.

For me, the right foot swell thing was unexpectedly difficult, it was like it got stage fright and froze. I just didn't have enough coordination skills left. I got there of a fashion in the end, but you could hardly call me a virtuoso.

Another odd thing for me was sitting, but with all of your limbs flayling about! :0)

btw: I find guitar harder.

Danny1969 · April 2020

Here's the way I teach how to co ordinate and it's the way I was taught to do it.

With you left hand play this Am arp in this order

A - C - E - A - E - C - A so going from A through to the octave and back using these notes

Now with your right hand start by playing a Higher A note every time you left hand starts the sequence. Just one simple A to begin with. Then add the C when your ready, then the E etc.

It won't sound much but it will keep your hand coordinated which is all you need to be able to do in order to play complete bits of music ... your left hand outlining the chords .... the right hand playing the melody. Then in time comes tricks to make is sound more interesting. I like to transpose guitar solo's from guitar onto the piano and then play the outline chords with my left hand ..... something like this where I have played the first solo from Comfortably Numb. Although the left hand part looks complicated it's really the simple trick I mentioned above with some extra notes added .... sometimes adding with the right hand while stepping on the sustain footswitch to keep the melody note ringing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB55zq3PGg8

TheOtherDennis · April 2020

Very nicely played, @Danny1969.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that.

Btw, I especially like the handbag on the door handle in the background, bet it goes beautifully with your eyes

thecolourbox · April 2020

Scales and arpeggios, especially in contrary motion or in thirds, are so important on piano. A lot of really nice sounding piano music is made up largely of them, particularly arpeggios. Learning them will also help you learn to play hands together, as that's a strength you'll need to build up to avoid sounding plinky plonky.

I always neglected learning them (especially the scales they make you do in parallel thirds, single handed. Even the chromatics!!! painful) and I think it held back my progress really when it came to the harder stuff. On the flipside I've never learnt scales or arpeggios on guitar, having never had a teacher, and I'm not sure if it would make the blindest difference whatsoever

TheOtherDennis · April 2020

@thecolourbox I agree about the arpeggios on the piano, because the course I have is big on those, and it's easy to hear in so many piano pieces, but I'm not so sure about it not mattering on the guitar - if you mean it's possible to play, say rhythm guitar without needing to learn arpeggios, then yes, that's true, but I personally believe they'd really help with playing lead and improvising, or using the guitar to create fingerstyle arrangements, or even the sort of little fiddly bits that really fill tunes out when it's just the guitarist singing solo, like Neil Finn or James Taylor do so much of.

thecolourbox · April 2020

TheOtherDennis said:

@thecolourbox I agree about the arpeggios on the piano, because the course I have is big on those, and it's easy to hear in so many piano pieces, but I'm not so sure about it not mattering on the guitar - if you mean it's possible to play, say rhythm guitar without needing to learn arpeggios, then yes, that's true, but I personally believe they'd really help with playing lead and improvising, or using the guitar to create fingerstyle arrangements, or even the sort of little fiddly bits that really fill tunes out when it's just the guitarist singing solo, like Neil Finn or James Taylor do so much of.

I know what you mean, I'm sure scales and arpeggios on guitar helps some people on guitar but I don't think it would for me for what I play.

The other thing they are good for on piano (and I presume other instruments) is they give people a ground knowledge of keys, notes of chords, harmony etc etc

thomasw88 · April 2020

Danny1969 said:

Here's the way I teach how to co ordinate and it's the way I was taught to do it.

With you left hand play this Am arp in this order

A - C - E - A - E - C - A so going from A through to the octave and back using these notes

Now with your right hand start by playing a Higher A note every time you left hand starts the sequence. Just one simple A to begin with. Then add the C when your ready, then the E etc.

It won't sound much but it will keep your hand coordinated which is all you need to be able to do in order to play complete bits of music ... your left hand outlining the chords .... the right hand playing the melody. Then in time comes tricks to make is sound more interesting. I like to transpose guitar solo's from guitar onto the piano and then play the outline chords with my left hand ..... something like this where I have played the first solo from Comfortably Numb. Although the left hand part looks complicated it's really the simple trick I mentioned above with some extra notes added .... sometimes adding with the right hand while stepping on the sustain footswitch to keep the melody note ringing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB55zq3PGg8

Hold your wrists up a bit old bean..Pretend there’s a mouse under each hand..
liked the music tho.

ive been playing piano for a few years now. I find it really interesting and have been doing my grades on it. Would heartily recommend getting lessons ( I get a lesson every two or three weeks). I’d say do the trinity grades rather than ABRSM as the pieces tend to be more interesting and you can do things such as improvisation and compositions part of your grades.

axisus · April 2020

I have greatly revitalised my piano playing under lockdown and I am loving it, especially as I have developed a way of playing that is great fun - I read the chord symbols and use them to create a backing whereby I can sing along (badly!) or just play along to recordings. No practice required, I just find chords and go, it's great fun!

I feel your pain though, as I experienced great trouble trying to learn the Chapman stick years ago. I learned some pieces and could play them OK (video evidence!) but could never get proper hand interdependence going. I gave up in the end, but I still have the stick so I will pick up again one day.

paulmapp8306 · April 2020

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits). i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line. It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders. You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not., There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together. With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

greejn · April 2020

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

axisus · April 2020

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

thecolourbox · April 2020

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits). i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line. It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders. You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not., There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together. With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

octatonic · April 2020

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Danny1969 · April 2020

thecolourbox said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits). i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line. It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders. You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not., There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together. With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

I never sit down to play keys, in bands I'm always standing and in my home studio my keyboard is setup to play standing.

I have an awful hand technique, a proper player hands look elegant ... mine look like claws

I started playing with no lessons and developed an awful technique ... which is why I always recommend to use the correct fingering from the get go .. which I didn't and it caused problems later.

thecolourbox · April 2020

Danny1969 said:

thecolourbox said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits). i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line. It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders. You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not., There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together. With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

I never sit down to play keys, in bands I'm always standing and in my home studio my keyboard is setup to play standing.

I have an awful hand technique, a proper player hands look elegant ... mine look like claws I started playing with no lessons and developed an awful technique ... which is why I always recommend to use the correct fingering from the get go .. which I didn't and it caused problems later.

Yes it kind of looks like that actually, like you're not used to having your hands in that position. Is your position better when stood up? Thinking though you'd probably get strains on the top of your hands instead

Here's my hand positions albeit playing a different style (please excuse the sloppy candenzas):

I'm quite a lazy player especially these days as I can't practice enough to keep my stamina up, but hopefully it shows it's a bit higher at the wrist

TheOtherDennis · May 2020

Well if there's one thing I've learned from putting this thread up, especially from the last few posts, it's that I'm playing in completely the wrong position! My my body is too close to the keyboard and whether I'm standing or sitting, the keyboard is too high.

My problem is there's nowhere else in the house for the piano to go, even though it's just a digital keyboard and effectively can go anywhere. Bugger, that's not going to help, is it? Hmm...

Oh, and I thought that was really nicely played, btw, @thecolourbox, can't imagine I'll ever get close to that level of ability.

thecolourbox · May 2020

Cheers @TheOtherDennis but to be fair I did over 10 years of lessons and exams as a youngster so the basics don't really go away after that much drilling into you!

Re your seating position. The main benefit of he higher wrists and slightly further away sitting position is the freedom of movement - if you sit really close and need to move your hand position even half an octave, you'll have to shift your torso to do it. Not only is that a strain but you also won't be able to do it very smoothly. Sit a bit further away and you only have to move your forearms really and that's a lot easier/smoother/quicker than having to wrangle your torso into position.

Is your keyboard on a stand? If so it should be adjustable? Could you use a cushion as a booster seat"? I sometimes do that to do be honest even now.

I think maybe the height of the keyboard might make more difference than how close you sit to it - though could be wrong. A lot of "pop" pianists seem to adopt the "Hunched over the keyboard" thing which I guess is where you may have picked that up - it helps you reach a mic if you're singing and certainly gives off the angsty musician image much better than the more classical sitting back position, but it doesn't make it easier to play.

axisus · May 2020

octatonic said:

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Yeah, I can do that, I can also play the regular way but in my old age it takes a vast amount of practice to learn and memorise a medium level piece. The chord thing is just fun and instant gratification. The next step up from that is weaving the melody in - easier in some keys than others!

thomasw88 · May 2020

axisus said:

octatonic said:

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Yeah, I can do that, I can also play the regular way but in my old age it takes a vast amount of practice to learn and memorise a medium level piece. The chord thing is just fun and instant gratification. The next step up from that is weaving the melody in - easier in some keys than others!

I think with piano music - it's more important to learn to read music than to try and memorise pieces. Obviously when you are learning to play a specfic piece you do get an element of muscle memory but once you get past a certain level most pieces are too complex to remember for any specific length of time.

Obviously if you're just doing some chord patterns etc that isn't neccesarily the case.

TheOtherDennis · May 2020

thecolourbox said:

Cheers @TheOtherDennis but to be fair I did over 10 years of lessons and exams as a youngster so the basics don't really go away after that much drilling into you!

Re your seating position. The main benefit of he higher wrists and slightly further away sitting position is the freedom of movement - if you sit really close and need to move your hand position even half an octave, you'll have to shift your torso to do it. Not only is that a strain but you also won't be able to do it very smoothly. Sit a bit further away and you only have to move your forearms really and that's a lot easier/smoother/quicker than having to wrangle your torso into position.

Is your keyboard on a stand? If so it should be adjustable? Could you use a cushion as a booster seat"? I sometimes do that to do be honest even now.

I think maybe the height of the keyboard might make more difference than how close you sit to it - though could be wrong. A lot of "pop" pianists seem to adopt the "Hunched over the keyboard" thing which I guess is where you may have picked that up - it helps you reach a mic if you're singing and certainly gives off the angsty musician image much better than the more classical sitting back position, but it doesn't make it easier to play.

No, my keyboard isn't on a stand - it's on a table, so it's not adjustable. I didn't buy a stand with it, because I thought we still had the stand from when my son failed to learn how to play at school, but I've not been able to find it. Even if I did, I've nowhere to put it, we just have too much stuff in our house.

I know I'm in the wrong position because even when I stand I get strain in my wrist muscles (not serious, just tiredness from using muscles I don't normally stretch, I don't let it get that far).

I'll need to rethink this before I go any further, because it's clearly a bigger factor than I first thought.

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Piano is hard

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