Jazz lessons online/instructional stuff

imalrightjack · April 2020

Hello TFBers,

I've likely asked about something like this once before. I tried enrolling with Jimmy Bruno and found myself struggling. If I recall correctly, I had to upload a video of my playing and he was a bit rude about it, not particularly helpful (very much you've got this wrong, and made me angry) or inspiring.

Now, having reviewed some of the PDFs I saved, I think I'm in a better place than I was then and have a better grasp of modes. I'm hovering over re-enrolling. However, I am wondering if you have any suggestions.

I'm happy to pay a few quid for online one-to-one sessions or pay for a course that is really good. Maybe one of you is a teacher and can fit me in?

I've been playing a long time. I'm technically reasonable (much better at noodling fast solos than complex chords), know major scale/mode basics and that's about it. I don't really know much about chords beyond the harmonised major scale but I dream of playing like Grant Green or Wes Montgomery but can't work out how to head in that direction. I imagine some of it is down to study without a guitar in hand and, with a deep breath, it's about time to have a go.

Thoughts welcome!

Ta.

ZenOvertone · April 2020

Have a look at subscribing to Jens Larsens YT channel, he's written a few books for Fundamental Changes now and is pretty good...covers techniques, scales and jazz standards too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ5tLJNu5RA

greejn · April 2020

Free stuff: Robin Nolan is good, Tuck's tips on facebook, I've got stuff on hubpages.com. Most people overcomplicate things and that's where traditional lessons can help.

Jalapeno · April 2020

Yeah, Jimmy's an accquired taste and can be pretty cranky. He's actually lovely person, but can have a very grumpy web persona.

+1 for Robin Nolan. He gives out free stuff, but his main site is behind a paywall.

Another +1 for Jens Larsen, he's great, but he goes at a relentless pace (there's new vids out every few days)

MusicLessons.com - Corey Christiansen is a great communicator/teacher

Sheryl Bailey's Bebob Dojo on Truefire is interactive

imalrightjack · April 2020

Thanks, chaps.

@Jalapeno - are any of them interactive, other than Sheryl Bailey, where somebody can assess what I know/can do/should focus on?

JohnCordy · April 2020

@imalrightjack not to be rude or too controversial, but the key to players like Wes or Grant Green is not much rooted in theory.

Personally I think there's quite a lot of stuff written down about jazz, but many of the great players like Gilad Hekselmann, Bob Reynolds or Jonathan Kreisberg seem to indicate that some of the best things you can do for jazz is learn many many tunes.

For me personally, not that I'm a good player or anything, but the vast improvement in my jazz playing came when I just focussed on learning a tune a week - but actually learning it - the head, the chords and then figuring out the harmony for soloing over it.

I wish someone had told me that earlier on.

Jalapeno · April 2020

JohnCordy said:

@imalrightjack not to be rude or too controversial, but the key to players like Wes or Grant Green is not much rooted in theory.

Personally I think there's quite a lot of stuff written down about jazz, but many of the great players like Gilad Hekselmann, Bob Reynolds or Jonathan Kreisberg seem to indicate that some of the best things you can do for jazz is learn many many tunes.

For me personally, not that I'm a good player or anything, but the vast improvement in my jazz playing came when I just focussed on learning a tune a week - but actually learning it - the head, the chords and then figuring out the harmony for soloing over it.

I wish someone had told me that earlier on.

Wis'd - theory whilst not bad in itself, won't teach you jazz, there's a lot of feel and ear training. For example playing triads and arpeggios will get you way further than knowing the modes of Melodic Minor.

Robin & Corey will do interactive Skype lessons. I suspect Jens Larsen would too, but I don't know.

imalrightjack · April 2020

JohnCordy said:

For me personally, not that I'm a good player or anything, but the vast improvement in my jazz playing came when I just focussed on learning a tune a week - but actually learning it - the head, the chords and then figuring out the harmony for soloing over it.

That makes sense. But doesn't knowing the theory make it easier and fast-track you to 'figuring out the harmony for soloing over it'?

Jalapeno · April 2020

imalrightjack said:

JohnCordy said:

For me personally, not that I'm a good player or anything, but the vast improvement in my jazz playing came when I just focussed on learning a tune a week - but actually learning it - the head, the chords and then figuring out the harmony for soloing over it.

That makes sense. But doesn't knowing the theory make it easier and fast-track you to 'figuring out the harmony for soloing over it'?

Not really - that'd be your ear and facility with scales. CAGED fingering is also good for getting out of Blues boxes.

There aren't THAT many progressions used in Jazz - they do modulate, but not wildly. Maj/Min 251 is 90% of it, then Non-functioning Dom7, Circle of Fourths/Fifths, 1 (or 3) 625, Maj to Min - I'd be hard pushed to name a song that wasn't covered by that.

This is great for explaining it - Harmony with Lego Brocks by Conrad Cork - you can easily get PDFs of it, I think it's out of print.

Jalapeno · April 2020

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

imalrightjack · April 2020

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

JohnCordy · April 2020

@imalrightjack hey this might help you if you're wondering on the modes side of things...to be honest modes would not be one of the approaches I would suggest regarding jazz improvisation. The video below is partly exploring why modal analysis may not be useful for you.

For a 2 5 1, the good news is that you only need to think one key - so a big part of jazz is identifying where is "home" for these chords. For instance autumn leaves is predominantly just based in 1 key, whereas giant steps is based in 3 keys.

For bebop, ballads and so on, the major scale is going to be your bread and butter, and learn the triads and arpeggios will be huge.

Jens Larsen's YouTube is a great place to look though!

viz · April 2020

imalrightjack said:

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

No. You just play in the key of the 1. It’s just a progression not a sequence of modulations

So in C major, you don’t suddenly switch to D dorian, G mixo, C major - switching key and mode at the same time, using modes that happen to use the same as the parent key’s ionian. That’s totally the wrong way to think of the flow of music. It’s all in C major, and you play a TUNE that fits with the harmony flowing underneath. (Unless the changes are SO slow that your brain really settles into each chord for half a minute or so)

The notes happen to fit D dorian and G mixo, but that’s purely because those notes are in C major. It’s called functional harmony. Like when we say I ii iii IV V vi vii*.

Modes are just an extension of that, filling the gaps between the triads: I ii(raised 6) iii(lowered 2nd), IV(aug 4th), V(lowered 7th), vi, vii(lowered 2nd and diminished 5th).

imalrightjack · April 2020

viz said:

imalrightjack said:

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

That’s totally the wrong way to think of the flow of music.

Trust me, that isn't how I think of the flow of music! I just wondered how others approached it.

viz · April 2020

imalrightjack said:

viz said:

imalrightjack said:

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

That’s totally the wrong way to think of the flow of music.

Trust me, that isn't how I think of the flow of music! I just wondered how others approached it.

Sure and I wasn’t thinking you did - just trying to put my opinion down clearly. I hear a lot of chord tone playing and it’s really jumpy and unmusical.

imalrightjack · April 2020

viz said:

imalrightjack said:

viz said:

imalrightjack said:

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

That’s totally the wrong way to think of the flow of music.

Trust me, that isn't how I think of the flow of music! I just wondered how others approached it.

Sure and I wasn’t thinking you did - just trying to put my opinion down clearly. I hear a lot of chord tone playing and it’s really jumpy and unmusical.

That's really what I want to avoid. In my mind's eye, the Jimmy Bruno method was pushed along following modally but I could be completely wrong! Appreciate the input

Jalapeno · April 2020

Ask Jimmy about modes !

Hahahaha - you'd get a blast of Anglo-Saxon

(Yes, you're wrong, he's all about melodies).

Tonal centre of the 1 of 251 (C as discussed above) - it sounds ok, make it more interesting by picking out Dm & G7 Triads and Arpeggios - but you can work up to that as it weevils into your ear, don't rush.

Jalapeno · April 2020

One of his more polite discussions of Modes - https://www.henriksenamplifiers.com/2019/01/04/7-questions-w-jimmy-bruno/

TforTele · April 2020

JohnCordy said:

@imalrightjack not to be rude or too controversial, but the key to players like Wes or Grant Green is not much rooted in theory.

Personally I think there's quite a lot of stuff written down about jazz, but many of the great players like Gilad Hekselmann, Bob Reynolds or Jonathan Kreisberg seem to indicate that some of the best things you can do for jazz is learn many many tunes.

For me personally, not that I'm a good player or anything, but the vast improvement in my jazz playing came when I just focussed on learning a tune a week - but actually learning it - the head, the chords and then figuring out the harmony for soloing over it.

I wish someone had told me that earlier on.

Just thinking along the same sort of lines: transcribing. I don't use it as much as I would like / should, but I find the Transcribe! software great.

GuyBoden · April 2020

I played old style traditional Jazz standards for over 20 years.

Using modes to play them is a complete waste of time and you won't get far. Just start by playing chord tones and arppegios, that's a much better approach.

The ii-V-I is in one key, not four keys like a Modes approach would have you thinking.

Modes are the theoretical basis for Chord Scale Theory, where you play a scale on every chord, it's no good for playing old style traditional Jazz standards, they were not played or composed like that. That's means virtually every Jazz Standard composed before 1960 didn't use modes as an approach.

My advice is to listen to the records of your favourite old Jazz standards and copy the lines, Chet Baker's trumpet lines are easier to transcribe. Then add a bit of theory about chord substitutes, Major/minor harmony, but not too much theory.

The old Jamie Aebersold book/cd with a proper Jazz band were great for practicing playing along with.

I like Jimmy Bruno's playing, I've seen him live a few times, great improvisor, because he has very good ears.

Modes are for Modal compositions not for old style traditional Jazz Standards.

Rant over..................................................

imalrightjack · April 2020

Thanks, @GuyBoden - didn't come across as a rant either!

kelpbeds · May 2020

viz said:

imalrightjack said:

Jalapeno said:

Once you get used to not playing 145 it's a lot easier to hear what's going on. Slipping in accidentals (by ear) becomes second nature in soloing - b9, #9, #11, 13 etc

There's no reason NOT to learn the theory, but it's more rewarding if you don't start there as it can be daunting.

How would you advise approaching, say, a 2-5-1? Switch between modes for each? I.e. Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian?

No. You just play in the key of the 1. It’s just a progression not a sequence of modulations

So in C major, you don’t suddenly switch to D dorian, G mixo, C major - switching key and mode at the same time, using modes that happen to use the same as the parent key’s ionian. That’s totally the wrong way to think of the flow of music. It’s all in C major, and you play a TUNE that fits with the harmony flowing underneath. (Unless the changes are SO slow that your brain really settles into each chord for half a minute or so)

The notes happen to fit D dorian and G mixo, but that’s purely because those notes are in C major. It’s called functional harmony. Like when we say I ii iii IV V vi vii*.

Modes are just an extension of that, filling the gaps between the triads: I ii(raised 6) iii(lowered 2nd), IV(aug 4th), V(lowered 7th), vi, vii(lowered 2nd and diminished 5th).

I agree with most of this but not entirely about 'You play in the key of the 1' . It certainly isn't modal and modes should be 'pretty much' reserved for modal playing (with exceptions!). I think a lot of the problem is that people confuse chord scales for modes. And thinking of a 2-5-1 using chord scales is a good thing to do. However, it's not good just to blindy follow chord tones as stated. But mixing chord tones with tension tones can give you really strong lines. Especially when we use voice leading. And not thinking in terms of chord tones won't help us to produce strongly voice led lines. Resolving down a semitone from one chord tone to another when the chord changes is particularly strong. So although we can think of it just in C major I don't think that will give us the best results to produce strong lines. I think it's better to use a chord scale approach and try to voice lead. Charlie Parker, for example, did this a lot as did loads of others. Just playing in C major doesn't really lend itself to creating these strong lines.

GuyBoden · May 2020

I agree with most of this but not entirely about 'You play in the key of the 1' . It certainly isn't modal and modes should be 'pretty much' reserved for modal playing (with exceptions!). I think a lot of the problem is that people confuse chord scales for modes. And thinking of a 2-5-1 using chord scales is a good thing to do. However, it's not good just to blindy follow chord tones as stated. But mixing chord tones with tension tones can give you really strong lines. Especially when we use voice leading. And not thinking in terms of chord tones won't help us to produce strongly voice led lines. Resolving down a semitone from one chord tone to another when the chord changes is particularly strong. So although we can think of it just in C major I don't think that will give us the best results to produce strong lines. I think it's better to use a chord scale approach and try to voice lead. Charlie Parker, for example, did this a lot as did loads of others. Just playing in C major doesn't really lend itself to creating these strong lines.

Charlie Parker didn't use the Chord Scale Theory you're advocating, the Chord Scale Theory came from George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept and latter by Berklee college. Charlie Parker died in 1955.

Charlie Parker's style was playing in each key with approach notes and enclosures around a chord's tones (notes).

https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com/chad-lefkowitz-browns-approach-notes-enclosures-jazz-improv-technique/

The problem I see is that Chord Scale Theory is taught to most students, and they then apply it to everything they play. IMHO, using this method of a scale for every Chord is lazy teaching, because it's simple to teach to students. Easy money.

Chord Scale Theory is not the best approach for old style Jazz standards (Pre 1960), but great for modern Jazz compositions.

wizbit81 · May 2020

Right, there's a hell of a lot of misinformation around on the internet when it comes to playing jazz. It's an incredibly hard thing to do properly and authentically and it requires a lot of fundamentals that about 99% of guitar players have totally ignored over the years. If you try to do it without knowing those it's like flying in a hurricane with no instruments. By far your best bet is finding a competant jazzer who teaches, and then getting 121 lessons.
I can recommend Nic Svarc if you look for him on Facebook. Fantastic player, hugely knowledgeable, and doing loads of Skype stuff during lockdown. Of course there are a million guys out there, feel free to do your own research, but make sure they can play the stuff you want to learn beforehand. Lots of teachers say they can teach jazz, but they have zero grasp of the language, theory, fundamentals etc, and are, frankly, bluffers. I'll say it again....please if you want to do this invest in a proper 121 teacher.

wizbit81 · May 2020

Oh, and prepare for years of work. There's no way to avoid that

imalrightjack · May 2020

I’ve found a teacher. Positive start. Hard work!

wizbit81 · May 2020

imalrightjack said:

I’ve found a teacher. Positive start. Hard work!

Great, good luck with it all!

Jalapeno · May 2020

Good - if he starts banging on about modes or chord/scale ditch him immediately !

Arpeggios and passing notes are where it's at.

And arpeggios are a big enough mountain to climb in the beginning IMHO

kelpbeds · May 2020

GuyBoden said:

I agree with most of this but not entirely about 'You play in the key of the 1' . It certainly isn't modal and modes should be 'pretty much' reserved for modal playing (with exceptions!). I think a lot of the problem is that people confuse chord scales for modes. And thinking of a 2-5-1 using chord scales is a good thing to do. However, it's not good just to blindy follow chord tones as stated. But mixing chord tones with tension tones can give you really strong lines. Especially when we use voice leading. And not thinking in terms of chord tones won't help us to produce strongly voice led lines. Resolving down a semitone from one chord tone to another when the chord changes is particularly strong. So although we can think of it just in C major I don't think that will give us the best results to produce strong lines. I think it's better to use a chord scale approach and try to voice lead. Charlie Parker, for example, did this a lot as did loads of others. Just playing in C major doesn't really lend itself to creating these strong lines.

Charlie Parker didn't use the Chord Scale Theory you're advocating, the Chord Scale Theory came from George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept and latter by Berklee college. Charlie Parker died in 1955.

Charlie Parker's style was playing in each key with approach notes and enclosures around a chord's tones (notes).

https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com/chad-lefkowitz-browns-approach-notes-enclosures-jazz-improv-technique/

The problem I see is that Chord Scale Theory is taught to most students, and they then apply it to everything they play. IMHO, using this method of a scale for every Chord is lazy teaching, because it's simple to teach to students. Easy money.

Chord Scale Theory is not the best approach for old style Jazz standards (Pre 1960), but great for modern Jazz compositions.

What I meant to say was that Charlie Parker used a lot of voice leading -my statement was a little ambiguous I agree.
What I was trying to point out is that following a chord scale approach and voice leading appropriately will give you strong lines -though there is nothing wrong with, for example, quoting lines from other tunes to come up with melodic lines or constructing melodic lines by hearing them first. I enjoy both methods but tend to prefer CST I like the fact that is a bit like a mathematical puzzle to me and that's how my brain works I guess.

Blueingreen · May 2020

The idea that because guys in the 40s and 50s didn't use CST we shouldn't use CST is an oversimplification. I depends how you want to sound. When John Scofield teaches how to improvise on "Softly As In Morning Sunrise" he discusses it purely in CST terms. But he's not teaching us how to play like it's 1955: he's assuming you want to play like a contemporary player. Likewise Rosenwinkel talks a lot about creative use of pentatonics.

Some guys love that 40s/50s/early 60s bop style and they want to play like that. They're not interested in what came after. Nothing wrong with that, and if you're one of them you should be conscious that the guys you're trying to sound like were not thinking in CST terms.

I can enjoy that kind of playing when other people do it well, but personally I have no interested in faithfully reproducing the styles of 70 years ago. A lot of more contemporary players ARE thinking in CST terms, at least some of the time. If you want to sound like them, CST will be useful. Even if I want to listen to someone play standards I’d much rather hear Rosenwinkle’s Standards Trio than some younger guy trying to sound like Grant Green or Jim Hall.

kelpbeds · May 2020

The thing I like about CST is that it attempts to decode jazz harmony where other approaches are much more 'feel' based. The comment 'You've just got to hear it man' springs to mind and to me that doesn't really help people especially when they can't just 'hear it' .

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Jazz lessons online/instructional stuff

Comments