All you ever wanted to know about Gibson T Tops

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Amongst Gibson owners the 'T Top' humbucker is, next to the PAF, arguably the most sought after 'vintage' Gibson pickup. Examples change hands for what can be quite a lot money ... so what's the deal with the T Top.
Well firstly the T Top (it was never called that by Gibson) isn't so much one pickup, as a family of pickups from around 1968 to about 1980, that all happen to use the same type of bobbin. The old PAF bobbin with its distinctive little holes at one end was distinctly fragile, and when Gibson re tooled the bobbin they made it a beefier moulding. There is some crap on the internet about T Top bobbins having a wider winding area ... this simply isn't true ... there is the 6.25mm winding area the PAF had, but with a slightly thicker top and bottom plate/flange, presumably to help stop bobbin 'flare' when winding.

Some time before the introduction of the T Top bobbin Gibson had made the switch from the dark brown/black PVA coated plain enamel winding wire that had been used on the PAF and on the 'patent' pickups of the early sixties ... to poly coated winding wire ... in shades from red to copper. The change made sense to Gibson I'm sure. PVA coated plain enamel is an utter bitch to work with, difficult to solder, hard to handle when threading winding machines, and more prone to mechanical damage in the winding process. Fender too had changed to poly wire at about the same time. All T Tops are wound with 42awg poly wire.

Gibson's production techniques were much more standardised in the T Top era than in earlier PAF days, so it's not surprising that every pickup I've handled with T Top bobbins (bar one which I shall come on to) came in around 7.5k bridge and neck.

Regarding magnets, the T Top used ... according to most sources ... alnico 5, rough cast 'short' magnets ... but this is where I prefer to call the T Top a 'family' of pickups, because around the mid seventies Gibson seem to have used alnico 3 for a while, then by 1978 ... possibly prompted by the popularity of aftermarket DiMarzio replacements, they had started to use double thickness, slightly narrower Ceramic magnets exactly like the DM Super Distortion. These variants will, of course each have a different sound.

The one pickup I have encountered that didn't have the expected 7.5k output was a very early Gibson 'Dirty Fingers' humbucker that was around 13k and also used T Top bobbins ... obviously in that case with the extra 'outrigger' magnets that characterised the Dirty Fingers.

Right ... let's take a look inside a T Top that's been on my work bench recently:

note the distinct 'bullseye' tooling marks have gone from the tops of the pole slugs (a feature of PAFs) ... and how the slugs don't actually come up flush to the top of the bobbin.

Here you can clearly see the twin white plastic spacers that the T Top used ... as opposed to the maple ones used in PAFs and early 'patent number' pickups. You can also see the end of the rough cast A5 magnet in this example.

Here you can see that the coil connections were made on the same side as the output cable comes in ... unlike the PAF and Patent, where the braided wire feeds under the bobbin and the connections are made on the other side. This saved Gibson a whole two inches of hookup wire per bobbin ... though is arguable less secure and more prone to breakage.

So now you can recognise T Tops ... so how do they sound? Well different to PAFs, but not as different as some people would have you believe. The chief difference is that both coils were wound with the same number of turns ... unlike the rather erratically wound PAF. This combined with the bright A5 magnet that most use make for a biting and aggressive sounding pickup. True, low in output by modern standards (especially in the bridge position), but quite happy when used under heavy drive ... but watch it ... they are unpotted, and can squeal under very heavy gain. Potting is actually not a good idea, as the bobbin material, like the older PAF's butyrate can warp with heat.

Personally I really like the alnico 3 versions I've come across ... they have a natural compression all of their own, and take pedals wonderfully.

Well that Folks is the T top ... As the months go on ... I will endeavor to bring you some other 'famous pickup types on my work bench' articles ... watch this space.

springhead · December 2019

Really interesting, thank you!

NPP · December 2019

springhead said:

Really interesting, thank you!

what he said!

OilCityPickups · December 2019

springhead said:

Really interesting, thank you!

I try to be of service :-)
we do a huge number of rebuilds and rewinds on all sorts of interesting pickups ... and sadly there tends to be a lot of incorrect information passed about online as fact. I deal with some pretty mouth watering pickups regularly ... from early Fender stuff to PAFs and some of the more unusual vintage Japanese offerings ... so often I can quash daft hearsay by actually showing you!

Koa · December 2019

Very informative, I guess Oil City have seen many T Tops, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I’ve never seen a zebra bobbin (white/black) one, wonder how common they were? Great pickups!

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Koa said:

Very informative, I guess Oil City have seen many T Tops, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I’ve never seen a zebra bobbin (white/black) one, wonder how common they were? Great pickups!

There seem to be a few later T Tops in cream and black zebra ... though double black seems much more common. The cream bobbins seem to crack quite badly (evidenced in the top photo).

Kittyfrisk · December 2019

@OilCityPickups ; Great information, much obliged.
I have 2 Gibson 'The Paul's' with original T Tops & I was interested in what you said about the bullseye tooling marks on the polepiece slugs.
Just looked & my T Tops seem to have a mixture of plain top slugs & some with variations of 'nipple' or concentric tool marks.
I have tried to capture the images but the light is poor.
Is this 'normal', transitional or irrelevent

And yes, I possibly could clean them up a bit

LastMantra · December 2019

Very good. Thanks for this.

I really like mine. Perfect output for me.

CeeJay · December 2019

A good read and very informative, especially to someone still fumbling their way around the world of pick ups. That's me in case you wondered. Thanks.

Ossyrocks · December 2019

I have a set of these too, in my '69 335.

How can you tell the Alnico variant ?

Rob

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Kittyfrisk said:

@OilCityPickups ; Great information, much obliged.
I have 2 Gibson 'The Paul's' with original T Tops & I was interested in what you said about the bullseye tooling marks on the polepiece slugs.
Just looked & my T Tops seem to have a mixture of plain top slugs & some with variations of 'nipple' or concentric tool marks.
I have tried to capture the images but the light is poor.
Is this 'normal', transitional or irrelevent
And yes, I possibly could clean them up a bit

A fine looking set! And yep ... as with all changes at Gibson in those days ... the pole piece tooling marks were a transitional thing. Gibson obviously got thousands of these made up ... and simply chucked them in the parts bin with the earlier sort. Pot luck as to getting ones with tool marks or ones without.

With any old pickups I'd fight shy of cleaning them ,,, it's really easy to disturb the coil wires and get yourself a pickup that needs surgery ... even a rewind! With the 'pigtails' and coil start and finish wires T Tops are a lot less rugged than older PAFs ... be careful!

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Ossyrocks said:

I have a set of these too, in my '69 335.

How can you tell the Alnico variant ?

Rob

Pretty much impossible without a gauss meter. Obviously, if they are the ceramic ones a look at the end of the magnet will tell you ... the ceramic mags are twice the height of the alnicos (of course your pickup has to be uncovered to get a look at that).

Having said that ...to someone who handles magnets and pickups every day ... I can usually take an educated guess based on strength of magnetic pull.

Ossyrocks · December 2019

OilCityPickups said:

Ossyrocks said:

I have a set of these too, in my '69 335.

How can you tell the Alnico variant ?

Rob

Pretty much impossible without a gauss meter. Obviously, if they are the ceramic ones a look at the end of the magnet will tell you ... the ceramic mags are twice the height of the alnicos (of course your pickup has to be uncovered to get a look at that).
Having said that ...to someone who handles magnets and pickups every day ... I can usually take an educated guess based on strength of magnetic pull.

Good info, thanks.

A friend of mine suggested I might try some Alnico 4 magnets in mine ( I have a few in the parts box, same supplier as Wizz)

Would you recommend that, and what do you think, if any, the tonal difference might be?

Rob

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Personally I'd leave vintage pickups alone. A swap to alnico 4 would take down a tiny bit of treble, but also loose some tightness in the bass. The issue is in disturbing old wiring ... plus you need imperial not metric sized bar magnets or you will cause internal spacing issues. Pretty much all magnets come from the same factories these days by the way ... China has a virtual monopoly on alnico magnet production.

If you want an alnico 4 PAF type sound ... I'd swap to any one of dozens of good PAF clones out there and carefully pack away your T Tops.

Kittyfrisk · December 2019

Thanks for the advice.
My idea of cleaning would be to brush off surface dust on the top surfaces

As far as any interventions go, I believe in 'less is more' so they'll stay as they are

The two sets are very different in tone & character, despite being from the same year, in almost the same guitar.
Really glad I resisted all attempts from mates to 'ditch those crap old pickups' :-D

OilCityPickups · December 2019

Kittyfrisk said:

Thanks for the advice.
My idea of cleaning would be to brush off surface dust on the top surfaces
As far as any interventions go, I believe in 'less is more' so they'll stay as they are
The two sets are very different in tone & character, despite being from the same year, in almost the same guitar.
Really glad I resisted all attempts from mates to 'ditch those crap old pickups' :-D

Some people see T tops as a 'lesser' option to PAFs ... I don't see it that way at all. The alnico 5 T top is a more modern sounding pickup than a classic PAF true, but very versatile. The neck pickups don't get as overly plummy as some PAFs can get, and T Tops can handle heavier styles without getting muddy.

I see the poor T Top as a bit of a pickup that missed its proper time: So many were ripped out in favour of DiMarzio Super Distortions (also a great pickup) because of the way players used amps back then. No master volume and bigger amps meant that the T Top was never going to deliver the full on rock sound without help. Nowadays the majority of us use amps and effects in a very different way, and the lower output and very 'string defined' nature of the T Top design is back in vogue. A small amp run hard with a T Top is a total delight, and they deliver just the right gain for working well with fuzz pedals etc.

There are surprisingly few T Top clones on the market ... probably due to market obsession with the all conquering PAF ... I make three different flavours myself ... but again, like their inspiration ... they tend to stand in the shadow of my more 50s like offerings.

Funkfingers · December 2019

OilCityPickups said:
the T Top was never going to deliver the full on rock sound without help.

You just described my musical collaborator's 1978/79 Les Paul Custom. (I wish that I had taken close-up photographs of it before he slid aftermarket covers over the pickups.) It only ever got properly filthy through a cranked AC30 or with the assistance of an MXR Distortion + pedal.

OilCityPickups said:
very 'string defined' nature of the T Top design is back in vogue.

Ideal for Funk, Reggae and strummy stuff. (My P90 Standard sounds fatter than that 78/79 Custom.)

IvisonGuitars · December 2019

Nice one Ash, very interesting indeed!

impmann · December 2019

OilCityPickups said:

Kittyfrisk said:

Thanks for the advice.
My idea of cleaning would be to brush off surface dust on the top surfaces
As far as any interventions go, I believe in 'less is more' so they'll stay as they are
The two sets are very different in tone & character, despite being from the same year, in almost the same guitar.
Really glad I resisted all attempts from mates to 'ditch those crap old pickups' :-D

Some people see T tops as a 'lesser' option to PAFs ... I don't see it that way at all. The alnico 5 T top is a more modern sounding pickup than a classic PAF true, but very versatile. The neck pickups don't get as overly plummy as some PAFs can get, and T Tops can handle heavier styles without getting muddy.
I see the poor T Top as a bit of a pickup that missed its proper time: So many were ripped out in favour of DiMarzio Super Distortions (also a great pickup) because of the way players used amps back then. No master volume and bigger amps meant that the T Top was never going to deliver the full on rock sound without help. Nowadays the majority of us use amps and effects in a very different way, and the lower output and very 'string defined' nature of the T Top design is back in vogue. A small amp run hard with a T Top is a total delight, and they deliver just the right gain for working well with fuzz pedals etc.
There are surprisingly few T Top clones on the market ... probably due to market obsession with the all conquering PAF ... I make three different flavours myself ... but again, like their inspiration ... they tend to stand in the shadow of my more 50s like offerings.

Interestingly, Page's No1 Les Paul gained a T-Top bridge pickup in the early 70s (apparently the original failed) and so a lot of those classic recordings were made using a non-PAF pickup... something missed by a lot of folks.

rsvmark · December 2019

Nice one Ash. Thanks for posting.

roberty · December 2019

Ossyrocks said:

OilCityPickups said:

Ossyrocks said:

I have a set of these too, in my '69 335.

How can you tell the Alnico variant ?

Rob

Pretty much impossible without a gauss meter. Obviously, if they are the ceramic ones a look at the end of the magnet will tell you ... the ceramic mags are twice the height of the alnicos (of course your pickup has to be uncovered to get a look at that).
Having said that ...to someone who handles magnets and pickups every day ... I can usually take an educated guess based on strength of magnetic pull.

Good info, thanks.

A friend of mine suggested I might try some Alnico 4 magnets in mine ( I have a few in the parts box, same supplier as Wizz)

Would you recommend that, and what do you think, if any, the tonal difference might be?

Rob

I love alnico 4 PAFs but my favourite pickup that I've tried is oil city nightfighter alnico 4. Got a pair in my 335, really fat and clear, they'll do pure clean to full on fuzz mayhem and excel at all of it. Bit of a plug there but I'm not kidding they are superb

guitarjesus · March 2023

Have you ever seen different colored wire connected to the coil? One of my T-Tops has a blue wire connected to the coil wore

OilCityPickups · March 2023

guitarjesus said:

Have you ever seen different colored wire connected to the coil? One of my T-Tops has a blue wire connected to the coil wore

No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.
Take an example the Gibson pickup that spawned my own PAT 63: a '1963' patent label pickup, that had been in the same SG since new and was undisturbed, Yet under the covers were PAF bobbins (not T Tops) wound with PVA plain enamel wire like a PAF, yet sat on a short alnico 5 magnet and having PAF output levels.
Old stuff got used up and mixed with new stuff in the Gibson factory of old.

Tannin · March 2023

A fascinating thread @OilCityPickups which I read with a goods deal of interest. Thankyou!

(It must be my inner geek - I don't play electric and pickups are thus of no practical use to me whatever - but it was nevertheless a good read.)

OilCityPickups · March 2023

Tannin said:

A fascinating thread @OilCityPickups which I read with a goods deal of interest. Thankyou!

(It must be my inner geek - I don't play electric and pickups are thus of no practical use to me whatever - but it was nevertheless a good read.)

Just from an 'evolution of technology' standpoint pickup history is fascinating.

PhilKing · March 2023

OilCityPickups said:

guitarjesus said:

Have you ever seen different colored wire connected to the coil? One of my T-Tops has a blue wire connected to the coil wore

No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.
Take an example the Gibson pickup that spawned my own PAT 63: a '1963' patent label pickup, that had been in the same SG since new and was undisturbed, Yet under the covers were PAF bobbins (not T Tops) wound with PVA plain enamel wire like a PAF, yet sat on a short alnico 5 magnet and having PAF output levels.
Old stuff got used up and mixed with new stuff in the Gibson factory of old.

That's really interesting. I have a patent number with exactly the same features. I picked up a really cheap SG standard in NYC back in 1980. It was a batwing version with a maestro vibrola and had been hand painted white. I got it for $200 from We Buy Guitars, but recognized the bridge pickup as a PAF because of the square cutout on the coils. I still have that pickup but now it is in the bridge position of my 1970 Les Paul Custom. I think it is an A5 magnet, just because of the sound, but it is one of the best sounding pickups and I won't be getting rid of it.

Dave_Mc · March 2023

OilCityPickups said:
No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.

You're right, the modern Gibson company is extremely rational and never does anything silly.

(

)

OilCityPickups · April 2023

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:
No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.

You're right, the modern Gibson company is extremely rational and never does anything silly.

( )

Absolutely, with my personal Les Paul they forgot to glue about 1/3 of the fingerboard on properly and screwed on the pickup surrounds on crooked.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fabulous guitar now - now I've changed all the plastic hardware, glued on the fingerboard securely and replaced the shonky electronics. :-)
Oh and it has my 'Green Man' PAFs installed.

Dave_Mc · April 2023

OilCityPickups said:

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:
No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.

You're right, the modern Gibson company is extremely rational and never does anything silly.

( )

Absolutely, with my personal Les Paul they forgot to glue about 1/3 of the fingerboard on properly and screwed on the pickup surrounds on crooked.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fabulous guitar now - now I've changed all the plastic hardware, glued on the fingerboard securely and replaced the shonky electronics. :-)
Oh and it has my 'Green Man' PAFs installed.

Oh wow

roberty · April 2023

ONLY A GIBSON IS GOOD ENOUGH

Kittyfrisk · April 2023

OilCityPickups said:

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:
No I haven't, although that's no indication that it isn't factory correct. Gibson did a lot of weird and random things back in the day.

You're right, the modern Gibson company is extremely rational and never does anything silly.

( )

Absolutely, with my personal Les Paul they forgot to glue about 1/3 of the fingerboard on properly and screwed on the pickup surrounds on crooked.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fabulous guitar now - now I've changed all the plastic hardware, glued on the fingerboard securely and replaced the shonky electronics. :-)
Oh and it has my 'Green Man' PAFs installed.

How do the 'Green Man' PAF's relate to your ' three different flavours " of T-Top that you mentioned earlier in the thread?

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All you ever wanted to know about Gibson T Tops

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