NGD: Atkin The Forty Three

TimmyO · February 2020

greggreg66 said:

I must admit that I've never really paid attention to nut widths before! Since I've been building a guitar I've become more in tune to the difference the shoulders on the neck make rather than thicknesses. If two necks are the same width and/or thickness, but one has more shoulder then it'll feel much bigger (I'm sure this isn't news to you!). The Atkin has pronounced shoulders on the neck (is that a D shape?) and I think that's the main difference that's making my hand stretch that extra bit further perhaps. The Martin felt more rounded to me today. It felt wider, but the roundness was more apparent and the extra width wasn't an issue.

Will have a ponder on it over the coming weeks and see what I arrive at. There's a large part of me that feels it'd be a shame to part with the Atkin, it's a beautiful guitar and I love the fact it's made in Kent where I'm from.

This is something I've long felt - the shape of the shoulder can have a huge bearing to how "big" a neck feels and how comfortable you'll find it

greggreg66 · May 2020

A small update.... I finally got around to tweaking the truss rod and what a difference that made. Can't help but feel that the saddle could do with a very slight lowering as the truss adjustment is on the limit of fret buzz in places, so have tried to book it in with a guitar tech, but he's been out of action with C-19 and only just going back in to work. Still, it's been considerably more playable with the truss rod tweak and now I can't wait to get it to a tech to work a bit more magic.

The lacquer is so thin it marks so easily. Just as well it's a relic model!

danishbacon · May 2020

I miss my atkin a bit

Epsilon · May 2020

When I tried your guitar in Ivor Mairants I remember discussing with the staff there that the saddle would benefit from lowering. It's quite easy to do with the right tools and a little patience (i.e make very small incremental reductions in height, re-install, try it out and repeat). My Atkin OM37 needed the saddle lowering a little as well.

I think Atkin must take the Martin approach of setting their guitars up with slightly high action from stock on the basis that it's far easier to lower the action that raise it.

greggreg66 · May 2020

Yes they probably do.

It also needs a fret polish too I think. Both procedures are quite simple and I should be able to do them, but as it’s a valuable guitar I think I prefer to leave it to the pros, just in case lol!

tomjax · February 2021

Very interesting thread. I've been looking at the J43 model too, it looks a lovely guitar and Atkins build quality is superb (I have a couple of his guitars), but I've been put off by the fact that they've got a 43mm nut width. I'm slightly baffled by this as I don't believe a J45 has ever had a 43mm nut, and from what I've read the early ones (including the '43 vintage) had 45mm/1.75" nut width.

I know it's possible to get one custom made, but I've been looking at the 2nd hand market, so I don't think I'll have much luck. Maybe if I get to play one the string spacing will feel ok.

My other Atkins (an OM and an L-1) both have very shallow C-neck profiles, so the fat D-neck may be unique to the J43.

Jimbro66 · February 2021

When I first got my Atkin OM-28H Retrospective (9 years ago) I found the action just a little too high for my preference so took it back to Alister after a few weeks. He said then that he prefers to set the action a little higher intially and was happy to drop it a little for me but that it might effect its tone and available clean volume slightly. Fortunately it didn't to any noticeable extent and I was happy with the improved playability towards the dusty end. It's now set up with a tiny amount of neck relief. 12th fret action is 2.5mm at high E and a smidgen over 3mm at low E. For an acoustic that suits me fine and plays cleanly without any buzzes.

As regards nut width, I fret notes with my thumb a lot so find 43mm (1-11/16") nut width just right for my hand whereas the 44.5mm (1-3/4") nut width of my previous Santa Cruz OM made thumb-over playing less comfortable.

I've not had a chance to play an Atkin 43. At the time I bought my OM Alister had only made the one-off Buddy Holly tribute guitar in that style. I have to say I'd really love one of his L-1 Historic or Model '36' guitars though. Maybe one day.

tomjax · February 2021

Jimbro66 said:

I've not had a chance to play an Atkin 43. At the time I bought my OM Alister had only made the one-off Buddy Holly tribute guitar in that style. I have to say I'd really love one of his L-1 Historic or Model '36' guitars though.

@Jimbro66 the Atkin L-1 is a fabulous little guitar, just great fun to play and really dynamic, it explodes with volume and range. It has the real vintage tone going on without being dry and boxy. I love mine, and it's a fab guitar for noodling away on the sofa. Having said all that, mine might be up for sale, so drop me a PM if you'd be interested if I do decide to sell it ( I've just bought an expensive Bourgeois OM, and sadly something has to go to help pay for it!)

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Back on track, I've just been listening to a few YouTube videos and comparisons of the Atkin J43 with the J45, it sounds great but doesn't have the J45 vibe going on to my ears; it's definitely a more modern balance. Has anybody been able to compare one with the Collings version, the CJ35?

BingMan · February 2021

The CJ35 is a different guitar entirely to be honest. It's based on an old J35, not the J45. The 35 has three unscalloped tone bars compared with the J45 which has two tone bars which I believe are scalloped, so isn't a true like for like comparison.
I may be a little biased as I own one myself, but I will say they are brilliant guitars, as i'm sure the others are too.

artiebear · February 2021

BingMan said:

The CJ35 is a different guitar entirely to be honest. It's based on an old J35, not the J45. The 35 has three unscalloped tone bars compared with the J45 which has two tone bars which I believe are scalloped, so isn't a true like for like comparison.
I may be a little biased as I own one myself, but I will say they are brilliant guitars, as i'm sure the others are too.

Another CJ35 owner here, player of many and previous owner of a great early 50's J45. Totally agree, the CJ35 is very different to the archetypal J45. A much more forward midrange than "some" earlier J45's. That's where comparison with wartime, post wartime 45's and prewar 35's gets murky. They were using prebraced tops with a bit of scalloping here and there with both two or three tone bars dependant upon on which was to hand. My 45 was very midrange heavy and sounded more like my well used Collings CJ35 than any modern era Gibson J45, which all dip in the midrange, with an element of compression.
I agree that the Collings CJ35 is indeed a great guitar. I have heard some folk say that it sound like no Gibson they have ever played, my answer is play a lot more old ones,

tomjax · February 2021

Great feedback, thanks. All brilliant guitars, we're wonderfully spoilt for choice these days. The Atkin J43 certainly comes in at a more accessible price point though.

greggreg66 · February 2021

I think you guys are more knowledgable and finely tuned to the nuances of different models than me. I took it to a luthier and had a different bone nut and saddle installed on his advice. I've never been 100% satisfied with it since then. The action is better (for me), but the top E seems a little lack lustre when plucked open, so I can't but think there's something up with either nut, saddle or frets. It just sounds quieter on the open string.

Generally the playability is good though, I don't get as the hand fatigue playing it as when I first got it. I'm tempted to swap the nut & saddle back to stock and see what difference that makes. I do ponder selling it from time to time though if I'm honest, I just think I want a smaller acoustic, I find myself still lusting after a 00 size. I'm 40 this year and a 00-28 Reimagined is calling me!! Ha! But the J43 is such a pretty guitar still and it gives a great sound, which sweetens when strummed softer.

Jimbro66 · February 2021

Are you too far away to take it to Alister near Canterbury @greggreg66? He would sort it for you.

artiebear · February 2021

greggreg66 said:

I think you guys are more knowledgable and finely tuned to the nuances of different models than me. I took it to a luthier and had a different bone nut and saddle installed on his advice. I've never been 100% satisfied with it since then. The action is better (for me), but the top E seems a little lack lustre when plucked open, so I can't but think there's something up with either nut, saddle or frets. It just sounds quieter on the open string.

Generally the playability is good though, I don't get as the hand fatigue playing it as when I first got it. I'm tempted to swap the nut & saddle back to stock and see what difference that makes. I do ponder selling it from time to time though if I'm honest, I just think I want a smaller acoustic, I find myself still lusting after a 00 size. I'm 40 this year and a 00-28 Reimagined is calling me!! Ha! But the J43 is such a pretty guitar still and it gives a great sound, which sweetens when strummed softer.

That's the nut causing the string to be be pinched, assuming it's multiple sets of strings. First try some steel wool to clear the slot, if that does not work, either get some nut files or a decent tech. The nut files option is quite easy with care.

DavidR · February 2021

Not defending Martin particularly but on the "Martins have high action" issue. Yes they do. When they ship. Lots of new acoustics do. It's deliberate.

The thinking is that some fingerstyle players prefer high actions. Lowering the action on a new Martin is usually just a matter of sanding an amount off the bottom of the bridge saddle until you have lowered the action to your taste. Preferably using a measure. A lot of players might be confident enough to do that themselves. It doesn't alter much about the guitar and you can always buy another saddle if you cock it up. A lot of people might change to their favourite saddle material (often bone) and would need to go through this process anyway. Needing to alter the neck relief as a component of lowering the action is much less common.

Also, raising the action is more difficult. A full setup is a job for a tech or a luthier. So better to ship with an easy to adjust slightly high action.

IMHO very few new instruments on today's sophisticated market can be criticised for shipping with a high action really. I would expect to see it quite often and know it was an easy fix. Learning how to differentiate poor neck relief from high action at the bridge is a simple and worthwhile exercise for anyone buying. Or take a mate.

I'm sure there are some outliers that people have come across but a producer wouldn't last long in today's market shipping consistently bad setup.

crunchman · February 2021

tomjax said:

Very interesting thread. I've been looking at the J43 model too, it looks a lovely guitar and Atkins build quality is superb (I have a couple of his guitars), but I've been put off by the fact that they've got a 43mm nut width. I'm slightly baffled by this as I don't believe a J45 has ever had a 43mm nut, and from what I've read the early ones (including the '43 vintage) had 45mm/1.75" nut width.

I know it's possible to get one custom made, but I've been looking at the 2nd hand market, so I don't think I'll have much luck. Maybe if I get to play one the string spacing will feel ok.

My other Atkins (an OM and an L-1) both have very shallow C-neck profiles, so the fat D-neck may be unique to the J43.

I did talk to Alister at the Guitar Show last year. They can do different neck profiles, which is what I was interested in. I'm sure they could accomodate a different nut width. I much prefer 1 11/16" to 1 3/4" though. As far as I'm concerned, Atkin have got that right, and the current generation of Martins have got that wrong.

Strat_a_tat_tat · February 2021

artiebear said:

Not in any way wanting to cut across the logic of this thread (I have been through the gamut of hand/wrist problems over the years), but having played as a pro for the last (bloody hell !) 41 years, the best thing I have discovered is regular upper body, including arm and hand exercises. I have done these as part of my daily workout for the last 20 years and even though things tend to ache more and more I have no issues with changing from huge old necks to violin, regularly playing a longer than long scale guitar with 13's to a vintage 1-13/16 V neck with 12's. Playing an instrument is painful and challenging because you are asking your muscles to reform to doing something quite difficult. Basically, if you love the 43 ( and you should ) work towards letting it become part of you, that does not happen in hours ,weeks or, quite often, months.

@artiebear ; Any tips on specific exercises? Thanks.

artiebear · February 2021

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

artiebear said:

Not in any way wanting to cut across the logic of this thread (I have been through the gamut of hand/wrist problems over the years), but having played as a pro for the last (bloody hell !) 41 years, the best thing I have discovered is regular upper body, including arm and hand exercises. I have done these as part of my daily workout for the last 20 years and even though things tend to ache more and more I have no issues with changing from huge old necks to violin, regularly playing a longer than long scale guitar with 13's to a vintage 1-13/16 V neck with 12's. Playing an instrument is painful and challenging because you are asking your muscles to reform to doing something quite difficult. Basically, if you love the 43 ( and you should ) work towards letting it become part of you, that does not happen in hours ,weeks or, quite often, months.

@artiebear ; Any tips on specific exercises? Thanks.

I combine twists from the waist with keeping my elbows out straight at shoulder height while the lower arm is bent inwards with hands straight at upper chest height. Keeping the arms up at that angle while exercising strengthen the lower arm. While doing this I am closing and opening each hand, which stretches the tendons. It might sound a bit crazy, but the twists help the back and upper body muscles to deal with hours of playing, especially with heavier guitars and bass. The keeping the arms up brings strength to the shoulders and each arm, while the hand exercises are great for loosening tight tendons. The only way I know it works, is when I get lazy and don't do it for a few days and feel the tendons getting tighter and playing bigger bodied acoustic guitars or heavier guitars for long periods brings more aches and pains.

Strat_a_tat_tat · February 2021

@artiebear ; Thanks for that.

greggreg66 · February 2021

artiebear said:

That's the nut causing the string to be be pinched, assuming it's multiple sets of strings. First try some steel wool to clear the slot, if that does not work, either get some nut files or a decent tech. The nut files option is quite easy with care.

Hi Artie, not sure that's the issue tbh as it's been to the tech a couple of times and he's addressed cleaning it out, so I don't think it's being pinched. I've had a tight nut (lol) before and it's a noticeable thing.... but for good measure I will look into it. I have a top E 10 gauge nut file so I can at least hit it with that (I appreciate that's a bit finer than a 12 gauge).

Jimbro66 said:

Are you too far away to take it to Alister near Canterbury @greggreg66? He would sort it for you.

I'm not a million miles away @Jimbro66, I'm London based. The thought had crossed my mind to take it back to him to see what he/they could do with it. Tbh the corner of the bridge has lifted very slightly so it could/should go back under warranty. By lifted I mean it's not 100% glued down and there's a very slight gap on the bass side.

DavidR said: Not defending Martin particularly but on the "Martins have high action" issue. Yes they do. When they ship. Lots of new acoustics do. It's deliberate.

I totally accept this. This is an old post so I understand how they are shipped and why, in terms of action etc. Considering the sheer amount of technology at Martin (and many, many other manufacturers) it's absolutely purposeful the way they ship them out. I still want a 00-28!!

PCT57 · March 2021

Despite everything that's going on in this thread I have to say that's a cracking sunburst!

hatcat · December 2021

I had the same problem with my 43. I was struggling with it a little. I live fairly close to the workshop and had taken it in before. It had a truss rod adjustment but after a while I was getting buzzing on the top E so re-adjusted it myself, leaving me back where I was before. This time one of the luthiers took some off the saddle and now it plays much better for me. I was worried that adjusting the saddle would affect the built in pickup, but it's fine. While I was there I had a chance to play one of Alister's new electric range. Those things are going to fly!!

TINMAN82 · December 2021

Something puts me off Atkin. Not sure why exactly but some of this thread supports it…high action, nut and saddle change etc. Surely the reason for choosing a boutique builder over Gibson is to avoid these issues.

Rip off designs rankle a bit too. The Gibson 50s original J-45 looks like a winner to me.

Wazmeister · December 2021

TINMAN82 said:

Something puts me off Atkin. Not sure why exactly but some of this thread supports it…high action, nut and saddle change etc. Surely the reason for choosing a boutique builder over Gibson is to avoid these issues.

Rip off designs rankle a bit too. The Gibson 50s original J-45 looks like a winner to me.

I tried lots of Gibsons prior to buying my Atkin The 43… to be fair, there wasnt a single Gibson that came close to it. As ever, ymmv.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

My 47 was perfect out of the box. Massively better than every mahogany Gibson I've ever tried.

DB1 · December 2021

TINMAN82 said:

Something puts me off Atkin. Not sure why exactly but some of this thread supports it…high action, nut and saddle change etc. Surely the reason for choosing a boutique builder over Gibson is to avoid these issues.

Rip off designs rankle a bit too. The Gibson 50s original J-45 looks like a winner to me.

Had a 43 - it was 'OK'. Nothing particularly endeared it to me, but in fairness I should have done what I do with all acoustics now - get a low action set up. It wouldn't stop me from trying another one - I really wanted a 43 because of it's back story, being a great Buddy Holly fan.

I've recently had a 50's original J-45. Sold it because the neck was a bit too chunky for me, but it was a nice enough guitar.

TINMAN82 · December 2021

Fair do’s. Need to try one then, have never seen one in a shop. Looks like they come in at least £700 more than a J-45.

DB1 · December 2021

TINMAN82 said:

Fair do’s. Need to try one then, have never seen one in a shop. Looks like they come in at least £700 more than a J-45.

From feel and sound (and obviously I've only had one example of each) - there wasn't enough difference for me to want to spend a lot more on a 43, if I was buying new. Just my thoughts as a fairly hopeless acoustic player.

greggreg66 · January 2022

Must admit that I rarely play it these days. I think it could probably do with another truss rod tweak..... but I'm still not convinced I'm going to keep it. It sounds lovely and I've got used to the neck, but I think the allure of a smaller bodied acoustic is more what I'm after. I did rather stupidly strum it a bit over eagerly on NYE and put a few more pick marks on it (massive face palm), so no doubt if it did hit the classifieds I'll pay for that.... although it is a relic so it's not out of place by any means thankfully!

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NGD: Atkin The Forty Three

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