Do you think you need to live and breathe [insert genre here] in order to compose said genre?

Drew_TNBD · May 2014

Something I'm curious about, that relates to discussions I've been having with a lot of people recently. This idea that you've got to know what you're doing in order to make a good representation of a genre. Lets say you were to make a jazz song... some have the idea that you really need to have been playing jazz for a number of years and be familiar with it in order to nail it.

I'm not sure about that. I think music has rules, and once you know the rules, you can get pretty damn close. Certain schools of jazz use certain types of progressions, chord structures, and playing styles that result in the sound of "jazz" ... but trying to convince people of this, I come up against "well go and do it then"

So what do you think? Can a rocker do jazz without eating, sleeping, and breathing jazz? Vice versa too of course!

guitarfishbay · May 2014

Yes.

monquixote · May 2014

The Beatles did great songs in loads of different genres, they were freaking geniuses though.

Jazz is probably a somewhat extreme example as you need quite a bit of chord knowledge.

spark240 · May 2014

No..eg I dont think I could say that I am proficient in any genre, but I can write pieces in the "style of", and thats good enough for me.

That is a very heavy question you have asked, no doubt it will spark some opinions !

randomhandclaps · May 2014

Yes. I think if the knowledge of music in general is great enough then you can apply it to any genre without having to live in that genre.

I have to write a hell of a lot of stuff in other styles to feed the kiddies. Although I find it difficult to produce a singular piece that I wouldn't choose to listen to (I think your heart being in a piece is a big part), plenty of stuff the I have to do does not fall into genres I wouldn't choose to listen to.

A strong theoretical knowledge makes the whole process easier and quicker, but creative ability is still essential.

By a 'friend of a friend tells a friend' type arrangement I fell in to recording, but particularly mixing and producing a lot of artists of the noise and soundscape scene. Similarly my cousin (out of nowhere) became quite big on the underground rap scene and I ended up helping out him and a lot of his contemporaries. Both are far from music that I eat, sleep and breath. A lot of these guys are full of ideas but very limited on classic musical ability. What I have found essential to adapting to other styles that you may have limited knowledge of is not just breaking it down to cold musical technicalities, but to be open-minded enough to ask "What is it that makes this appealing to people?". That's why when people say "I don't like artist x because I am so high brow I can spot all the mistakes.", in my personal opinion they are missing the main core of why people choose to listen to music/art.

It's difficult to say how essential it is but I do find myself spending a few days listening to similar material. Part of this is to see what is going on currently, but I am sure another part is for me to enter the right headspace and start thinking in that style. I have under pressure skipped this step or literally had half an hour on the way to the studio to do it but I probably feel things come easier when I have prepared myself.

thecolourbox · May 2014

I don't think you do, i rarely listen to jazz for example but the most well paid work ive ever done in music was as a jazz pianist. If you have a decent musical ear you can lean towards whichever style i reckon. There's both methods, immersion or cherry picking

Danny1969 · May 2014

I often find attempting to ape a particular song or style, and then missing slightly often results in something unique and interesting.

viz · May 2014

I think you do have to understand it deeply to be able to write in it. But of course, that you can also invent your own fusion by, for example, improvising in blues over a jazz standard, which can sound interesting and be very rewarding to play.

Drew_TNBD · May 2014

I tend to think that whilst you do need a cursory understanding of the forms, but what is much much more important is having a ear for the target you're trying to hit and knowing how to get there.

I'm not even necessarily talking about something that is creatively fulfilling or aiming for new territory. I'm talking about being able to hit an archetype of a genre, whether it is jazz, funk, prog, metal, dubstep, whatever.

The assertion I'm running into is that you need to be utterly experienced and somewhat specialized in order to pull it off. I don't buy it.

PolarityMan · May 2014

I reckon it's a combination of experience and influences.

Anyone relatively experienced could probably produce something that would be identified as belonging to any given genre.

......But I think a genre which overlaps with your influences is where you're likely to produce better quality results.

So in other words I could write a jazz song, but it probably won't be as good as my metal songs

axisus · May 2014

I think that amateurs can wing it and it sounds OK, but the higher up you get on the pro scale the more distant you can sound from the 'real deal'. I cringe a bit when I think of say Rush's attempts at Reggae, or Queen with basically everything off of Hot Space.

IanSavage · May 2014

I can write and sing a passable blues, but even when I'm technically up to the task I pale into insignificance alongside the likes of Aynsley Listeer, Matt Schofield or Ian Seigal who DO live and breathe it. There's a certain indefinable 'something' that you get from immersing yourself in a genre that's difficult to fake.

EricTheWeary · May 2014

IanSavage said:

I can write and sing a passable blues, but even when I'm technically up to the task I pale into insignificance alongside the likes of Aynsley Listeer, Matt Schofield or Ian Seigal who DO live and breathe it. There's a certain indefinable 'something' that you get from immersing yourself in a genre that's difficult to fake.

Oh, you did your support to Mr Seigal this week didn't you? How was that? I would have loved to have gone but the day of my wedding anniversary it was never going to happen. So, happy anniversary to MrsTheWeary and me whilst I'm on the subject!
8-X

Anyhoo, this Discussion got me thinking about Spinal Tap as an ( slightly random) example. I've always felt it was the product of some people (or someone) who really loved and knew Heavy Metal ( the 1970's and early 1980's versions thereof). Without that authenticity the humour in the music wouldn't work. It's not just spoof it is heavy metal with another element added and added succesfully.So you have that mixture of immersion that Drew is discussing plus a fresh element.I guess you need that balance between immersion and the ability to bring a new perspective otherwise you are just rehashing the genre cliches.

In contrast the axisus example of Rush ( or 10CC or lots of people) doing bad reggae - it doesn't bring anything new to reggae because it is horrendously inauthentic. That probably wasn't their intent but it doesn't bring much new to their rock music either because it is just bolted on: they didn't learn anything from it ( as it appears to me).

Having said that I guess there are notable succesfull failures - bands like The Kinks developed their own style as a result of being very, very bad at playing blues.

I'll stop wittering now...
3:-O

NPP · May 2014

I think if you are just doing something 'in the style of ...' with a rather limited understanding of it there's a risk of it sounding like elevator music. I really can't stand fake blues, soul, funk played by people who think these things are easily done by following a few rules.

On the other hand, if you want to incorporate elements from a different style into your own material, you are free to do what you want, you define the genre!

I have never been a creative or innovative type, I'm content to strive to understand how stuff worked in the past but obviously many real musicians would find this restrictive.

PolarityMan · May 2014

axisus said:

I think that amateurs can wing it and it sounds OK, but the higher up you get on the pro scale the more distant you can sound from the 'real deal'. I cringe a bit when I think of say Rush's attempts at Reggae, or Queen with basically everything off of Hot Space.

I don't think it's really to do with amateur and pro but actually more a flaw with certain types of technically proficient musicians. I think reproducing a style by consciously analysing it is always doomed to failure.

LastMantra · May 2014

I kind of agree with your friends. You might be able to bring it down to a set of rules but even just to learn those rules you would need to feel pretty passionately about the type of music.

Personally I think it's largely about expression, conveying emotion/experience. For the blues I would imagine it is easier to write a sad song/piece of music when you are sad, or at least have memories to draw from. Of course it should be easier to draw from experiences like addiction and real hardship than, say, the loss of a pet hamster...but not impossible.

Drew_TNBD · May 2014

I guess I'm risking embarrassment and a tongue lashing here, but I wasn't really buying it. So I thought I would try my hand at some slow droney jazz...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8qg0q86fjlepbs/DroneyJaath.mp3

Drew_TNBD · May 2014

That bad huh? lol. Fuuuuuuu-

LastMantra · May 2014

Personally I prefer some of your other stuff. I'm not a big jazz fan though.

It certainly sounded very well performed and put together to me.

johnnyurq · May 2014

As Johnny hates Jazz not able to be objective at all, but at least you had a go.

I wouldn't know good jazz from bad so yours may very well be genius.

In short, niiice!!

guitarfishbay · May 2014

I'm basically a rock musician with little formal training (grade 1 Theory, Grade 2 piano, GCSE in Music, never used sheet music with guitar lessons), but I often write random sketches that have nothing to do with anything, inspired by whatever really. I tend to write in my head, and my hard drive is full of half finished experiments... I feel like the only thing that limits me is my own imagination, which I guess in turn is fuelled by my own experiences of music. Anyway since Drew posted an example I will post some older stuff done a few years ago in non rock styles.

Here's something chilled and 'jazzy' I wrote, don't think the guitar is especially authentic (and it wasn't my goal) but I think the feel of the backing is about right. https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvl4un5s4qr1syr/laid back.mp3

Here's something I wrote imagining a sad montage in a film https://www.dropbox.com/s/h26gwekn2s59yi7/fazmosphere.mp3

Recently I've been pretty busy writing stuff for my band. I've arranged our set for electric, acoustic, and taken the main themes and created film style interludes which may or may not ever get used but I just felt like doing them. Here is the film style outro for a ballad track.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3aytvvx5rf943f/Song 1 Classical Outro February 2014.mp3

hugbot · May 2014

I think, you could write say, a song in (x genre) having much history it, but when it comes to making an albums worth of material you would run of ideas real fast.

Also the difference between composing and recording is huge, you copuld record just about anything given a 1000 takes to try. Performing it convincingly is different though.

mellowsun · May 2014

If you feel it, you can write it, play it and record it, whatever the genre. You don't need to be an 'expert' in the genre. Do it by the numbers and it will sound like muzak.

drwiddly · May 2014

This thread reminded me of those old Top of the Pops albums from the 60's and 70's, where a selection of chart hits were played by session musicians instead of using the original tracks, presumably to save money. The songs were always well played, sung in tune, etc but sounded nothing like the originals. They were stiff and somehow completely soulless because the musicians probably came from a different genre and didn't really give a toss as long as the right notes were played in the right order.

ThePrettyDamned · May 2014

No.

Well, yeah a bit.

I suppose if you feel very passionate about a 'sound in your head' you'll find a way of getting it out, or something close to it. I love tech, but I don't have the chops (frankly) nor the recording talents (tech very definitely needs some decent understanding of DAW software). So I compose using thrashy riffs and pretty simple chord progressions that lend themselves to melody or arpeggios, which can be tapped, picked or sweep picked. The result is something that has elements of both but sounds like neither.

This morning I came up with a cool downpicked riff in 4/4 in e minor with a low e pedal drone. Yawn, how boring. However, it has a triplet harmony line on the second repeat (just a scale line, nothing fancy), and ends on a bar of 5/4 leading into a pre chorus in 6/8 with a C major and D major inversion on one guitar and a tapped add2 arpeggio on the other. This gives it a very different feel to the thrashy opening, more along the lines of tech without me needing a degree in recording software to work on - I'm just trying to work out what to move onto next and how to do it.

At the very least, you need an appreciation of the sound and feel you want.

Cacofonix · May 2014

Drew_fx said:

That bad huh? lol. Fuuuuuuu-

The drum line has some interest. The melody line is missing some tension and resolution. It seems that you haven't played any 7ths, 11ths or 13ths. It would be better as a walking bass line, I think.

It sounds like notes up and down a scale, rather than a directional piece, tbh.

Like the drums though. There's some mileage in that backing.

FWIW, I think you need to have some appreciation of the style before you can play in it, unless you are really skilled. If you are really skilled, then maybe, but I recall Bob Marley saying about reggae:

"It's the feel. Them know it, but them can't do it. It's the feel."

Much music is like that. How many covers sound as good as the originals? All Along the Watchtower is an exception, of course.

Drew_TNBD · June 2014

More jazz bollocks...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjxk570ngom7lji/MoreJaath.mp3

octatonic · June 2014

Drew_fx said:

Something I'm curious about, that relates to discussions I've been having with a lot of people recently. This idea that you've got to know what you're doing in order to make a good representation of a genre. Lets say you were to make a jazz song... some have the idea that you really need to have been playing jazz for a number of years and be familiar with it in order to nail it.

I'm not sure about that. I think music has rules, and once you know the rules, you can get pretty damn close. Certain schools of jazz use certain types of progressions, chord structures, and playing styles that result in the sound of "jazz" ... but trying to convince people of this, I come up against "well go and do it then"

So what do you think? Can a rocker do jazz without eating, sleeping, and breathing jazz? Vice versa too of course!

Jazz is a particularly difficult genre to master because to do it authentically you need to spend many years working towards that goal.

Jazzers can spot people faking it a mile off.

Also, what do you mean by jazz?

Bebop?

Swing?

Gypsy Jazz?

Western Swing?

Fusion?

They all have their own vocabulary and it isn't easy to go from one to the other without studying it seriously and for a number of years.

I don't think it is as difficult with other genre's but I do think you need to be paying attention to the genre.

Country is another genre that is hard to fake.

koneguitarist · July 2014

No.

Snap · September 2014

I think to be able to do a genre well, you've got to be "into it". Otherwise, IMO, you won't know the genre well enough, or have enough passion, to produce anything other than ordinary.

A good session musician will be able to play loads of genres and styles: but they are operating, always, within guidance - ie do me some riffing on this metal track, or, some neat jazzy lines on this etc (yeah, being simple). That's a whole world away from composing.

Funnily enough, it's something I'm struggling with; I don't know what kind of music to focus on in my own compositions. If I'm collboarating with someone its a lot easier.

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Do you think you need to live and breathe [insert genre here] in order to compose said genre?

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