So what defines a pick-up as crap?

equalsql · August 2013

So here's an interesting point for discussion: How do you decide that a pick-up is crap?

For example, I have an old 'Legend' Jazz Bass copy (by Aria I believe) that I picked up about 15 years ago as a short term solution until I found something 'better'. It looked pretty well made, but over the years the tuners have got rattly, so need replacing, so I decided to strip down the whole instrument to see how it was put together. Surprisingly the pots are big old fashioned heavy-duty types (like CTS) and the only fault I could find in the construction was a slight router track on the bare wood at the body's neck-joint. The bass needs a bridge with more mass, but I then wondered about the pick-ups.. how do I know if they are crap or not? They're not 'potted' but then how many JB pick-ups are? They seem to sound OK, but is shelling out on a set of Seymour's or equivalent really going to make the money's worth of difference? Is there magic in the 'impedance' of the pups?

It could all be subjective at the end of the day as there seems to be a lot of 'mojo' BS when it comes to pups.

Any opinions out there?

bertie · August 2013

nothing, same as most things. They're just 'not appropriate'

[Deleted User] · August 2013

I think there's a big difference between a pick-up which not fit for purpose and one where it doesn't suit your tonal requirements. My first electric guitar was a CSL Telecaster Custom look-alike. The bridge pick-up was ice-pick bright, with no 'body' to its sound and squealed badly, even at domestic levels. It looked like a Tele pick-up but was definitely not made of the right materials or to a high enough standard to sound like one. I replaced it with a Di Marzio Pre B1 and couldn't believe the difference. It transformed the sound of the guitar. Most low-end imports have poor pick-ups (Strat style ones often have bar magnets to keep cost down) and would benefit from an upgrade.

mart · August 2013

Perhaps I'm over simplifying, but I'd say that if the pups sound ok and aren't too noisy, then they're fine.

Fez · August 2013

If the other elements in the chain are all sound - Amp decent, good leads etc and the guitar still doesn't sound good then the pick ups bear looking at.

ESchap · August 2013

mart said:

Perhaps I'm over simplifying, but I'd say that if the pups sound ok and aren't too noisy, then they're fine.

+1

But of course the fact you are posting suggests that you are not completely happy or just wondering if the "grass is greener".

Lots of far eastern copies use the magnet (often ceramic) glued under steel slugs type of pickup instead of the magnets being the slugs themselves. My experience of these is that they do not give a "true" sound as they are in effect producing a different shaped and strength magnetic field for the strings to vibrate in. Changing those to the "proper" design can be like lifting a blanket of the pickups tone.

stonevibe · August 2013

Some players like 'crap' pickups. I suppose it all boils down to what you like the sound of and there are no wrong or rights. Okay some pickups may be microphonic and squeal, but some people may actually like that as well.

FelineGuitars · August 2013

I have found that many pickups benefit from being properly wax dipped

on some "cheap nasty " pickups the transformation is pretty radical

often players have stock pickups in a far eastern guitar and there is just something about the sound that just doesn't sound right - often it is that the pickup is on the brink of microphonic feedback all the time and on a pickup that is a little shrill by nature it makes for a bad sound.

Removing the tendency to tip into microphonic feedback eliminates much of the problem.

However we often realise that the player is looking for a chance to treat themselves to something new and would prefer to go down the upgrade route -

digitalscream · August 2013

Meh, as far as I'm concerned the only thing which defines a pickup as "crap" is if I don't like it

Drew_TNBD · August 2013

I've found with a lot of cheaper made pickups that when you're doing palm mutes, the distortion coming from the amp goes all fuzzy; kinda like a big muff. When you replace it with a nice Bareknuckle or Seymour Duncan, it really comes to life.

I don't know why this is, and if it were something that could be cured easily, then I'd be tempted to DIY it.

p90fool · August 2013

There's a big difference between a crap pickup and, say, a crap Strat pickup.

We have sonic expectations based on the shape of a pickup and the shape of the guitar it's in, so most of us would probably define an Asian-made, mid-heavy, ceramic bar magnet Strat pickup as crap, when it actually might get good reviews if it looked like an old Teisco or DeArmond and was in a funky old hollowbody.

grungebob · August 2013

I would have thought the answer was simple? Your ears?

impmann · August 2013

Its in the ears of the beholder, as perfectly put above.

TTony · August 2013

mart said:

Perhaps I'm over simplifying, but I'd say that if the pups sound ok and aren't too noisy, then they're fine.

That's not over-over simplifying, that's called cutting the BS

Ash did a useful post here on upgrading cheap p'ups if they're not producing a good sound ...

OilCityPickups · September 2013

I pretty much subscribe to the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' brigade. If you are getting the sound you want from a pickup it's a good pickup for you ... pointless to change it.
Many JB pickups are indeed not potted at all ... or only have a light wax or even lacquer dip. I tend to make any JB replacements with a 'swift dip' of wax just to set the parts ... unless I know the bass player is of the metal persuasion and will be using mega gain.
I'd leave em ... until and unless you find a deficiency.
As an interesting point I see quite a few cheap JB copy pickups with that typical Chinese built: plated iron slugs and big ceramic magnet underneath layout. Actually some don't sound too bad at all ... where they lose out however is in detail and harmonic overtone compared to proper alnico slugs.

Emp_Fab · September 2013

I think the only way to find out is to try some others yourself. You can't have a technical definition of 'crap' when it comes to something as massively subjective as music. It sounds to me like you're unhappy with your existing pups and are trying to find a technical explanation of why that is. The technicalities are utterly irrelevant - if a top of the range Seymour Duncan made with rare-earth organic unicorn horn and gold windings doesn't get you the sound you're after but a kids toy magnet wrapped with doorbell wire does, then the Seymour Duncan is the crap one. Stop falling into the trap of thinking that creating music is like upgrading your computer. Before the invention of distortion pedals, some guitarists would deliberately rip the speaker cone in their amps to get a distorted sound. It's all about creativity and experimentation. Get on ebay and buy some pickups, try them, if you don't like them, put them back on ebay. Keep going until you get the sound you are after. It is, after all, about the sound you create, not the equipment used to make it.

ICBM · September 2013

I agree with ESchap and TheGuitarWeasel - sometimes the typical cheap ceramic-magnet-on-the-bottom type pickups can sound pretty good. But generally you only think that until you change them for better ones... then the cheap ones often seem a bit 'flat' or 'lifeless' - good pickups generally have more depth and detail to the sound, and sometimes noticeably more dynamic range as well. The cheap ones also sometimes have a slightly harsh overtone which seems to sit on top of the core sound of the pickup.

I've got a 1980s Aria Strat-like guitar which came with those pickups - it sounded quite good at first, but there was just *something* that slightly niggled me about the sound, they were somehow both harsh and muddy at the same time. So I changed them for some old Bill Lawrences - the difference was much bigger than I expected and now I don't know how I could have thought the old ones weren't too bad!

Misterg · September 2013

So how is it that a 'man-in-a-shed'[*] (Bill Lawrence, Seymour Duncan, Ash, etc.) can make (subjectively) better sounding pickups than the ones that come from the mass manufacturers?

Why don't the mass manufacturers do what the shed-men do?

[*] I know that these people have moved on from that status, but I think that's how they started.

[Deleted User] · September 2013

Why don't the mass manufacturers do what the shed-men do? Cost I would imagine. I'm sure as Fender moved to using smaller numbers of windings on Strat pick-ups that it wasn't because someone thought they sounded better this way - it saved them money because they were using less wire....

equalsql · September 2013

I'm not 'unhappy' with the current pickups in so much as wondered where the cost savings were made with this instrument. One would assume perhaps in the hardware, so what I was trying to figure out was what difference is there between a pickup, made at a price-point to fit a budget instrument and that on the instrument it is copying. I don't have another JB to do a side by side comparison against.

NPP · September 2013

I recently switched the pickups in my hollowbody. The originals were 'Duncan-designed' Arias. They gave a tolerable sound only at one, rather extreme, amp setting (with mids and treble set very low). Now that I have Oil City Mighty 90s in the guitar it's almost the opposite - there's a good sound at any amp setting. I can explore these settings if I want to, but I don't have to waste time fiddling with the dials because however they are set, the guitar produces something useable. That's one difference between crap and non-crap pickups.

As to cost-cutting, the original Tele was very much an exercise in cutting production cost which didn't do it too much harm. However, there must be a difference between (a) cutting production costs and waste while using quality materials and (b) cutting production cost without regard to quality.

digitalscream · September 2013

Misterg said:

So how is it that a 'man-in-a-shed'[*] (Bill Lawrence, Seymour Duncan, Ash, etc.) can make (subjectively) better sounding pickups than the ones that come from the mass manufacturers?

Because the man-in-a-shed builders don't have to cater to the mass market - they can still make money out of shifting relatively low volumes, and thus cater more specifically to the client's needs (or even target a small niche). The big boys have to justify the costs that go with making massive quantities - of setting up a production line etc - so they need to compromise on some aspects in order to make the product desirable to a wider audience.

For example, I've been putting off a pickup change in my Jaden Rose Series 2 for ages, because the pickups I want don't come in the configuration and baseplate shape that I need; a couple of PMs back and forth with Ash, and I'm going to have some slightly customised perfect-fit pickups on the way. Couldn't have done that with Seymour Duncan, Lace etc.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

NPP said:

I recently switched the pickups in my hollowbody. The originals were 'Duncan-designed' Arias. They gave a tolerable sound only at one, rather extreme, amp setting (with mids and treble set very low). Now that I have Oil City Mighty 90s in the guitar it's almost the opposite - there's a good sound at any amp setting. I can explore these settings if I want to, but I don't have to waste time fiddling with the dials because however they are set, the guitar produces something useable. That's one difference between crap and non-crap pickups.

As to cost-cutting, the original Tele was very much an exercise in cutting production cost which didn't do it too much harm. However, there must be a difference between (a) cutting production costs and waste while using quality materials and (b) cutting production cost without regard to quality.

I had Duncan Designed P90s in one of my Teles ... they were a bit dimensional to say the least. Glad you like my MNs by the way

Leo had a really good grasp of where cutting costs was acceptable and where it impacted badly. His pickups were always hand made ... but then labour was cheap in those days.

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So what defines a pick-up as crap?

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