Acoustic action

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

From various websites, I get the impression that a reasonable aim point for action height at the 12th fret on a dreadnought is about 3/32" on the bass side and 2/32" on the treble side (distance between top of fret and underside of string). Is that generally regarded as a minimum height... or is it possible to go a little lower (assuming the player doesn't generally hit the strings with massive force)?

Many thanks

ICBM · July 2019

That's as low as I would want to go on any acoustic, certainly a dreadnought. Maybe even not quite as low as that.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@ICBM ; Many thanks.

RandallFlagg · July 2019

Yep, that's as low as I would go, I prefer 6/64ths to 5/64ths. Any lower and your losing volume, power, and bringing in rattles and buzzes unless you play very lightly.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@RandallFlagg ; Thanks for the info.

Lewy · July 2019

I’d consider that classic “3 and 2” action as being a medium action with 13-56 strings. You can go a bit lower and still play fairly hard as long as your frets are in good nick.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@Lewy ; Thanks. I'll be using 12-53 strings. When you say a bit lower... how much ?

Lewy · July 2019

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

@Lewy ;; Thanks. I'll be using 12-53 strings. When you say a bit lower... how much ?

Personally I wouldn't put 12-53 on a dread, but working off experience with 12-53 on an OM the lowest action I had was around 5/64 low E down to 3/64 high E. Could still flatpick that guitar with a moderate attack. No discernible loss of projection or tone. I don't personally believe action in and of itself has that much impact on the tone of a guitar...it's the things that lowering the action then goes on to change that make the difference, most critically the height of the strings off the soundboard at the bridge. If that height is still healthy after your action is lowered then there's no reason why the tone of the instrument has to suffer.

A lot of it depends on how you play, really.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@Lewy ; Many thanks for the info.
Yes... 12-53 is probably not ideal - but I've got feeble fingers that are used to playing 10s on a Strat. Thanks for the info on lower action that worked on the OM.

What is the ideal (or minimum ideal) height of string over the top?
Thanks.

Lewy · July 2019

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

@Lewy ; Many thanks for the info.
Yes... 12-53 is probably not ideal - but I've got feeble fingers that are used to playing 10s on a Strat. Thanks for the info on lower action that worked on the OM.

What is the ideal (or minimum ideal) height of string over the top?
Thanks.

General consensus when it comes to classic Martin-style dreads is around 1/2" in front of the bridge for optimum projection. But there are lots of variables. For example, let's say you lower your action and that puts the string height off the soundboard way below that 1/2"....the overall "potential" for volume may be reduced. But if it allows you to play more cleanly and fluidly, and thus with greater clarity, you may end up getting more "practical" (i.e. accessible by YOU) projection out of the guitar. I've also heard it said that a lower string height may allow more "bounce" on certain tops which can have a positive effect.

Gone down a rabbit hole there but my main point was if you want to lower your action it's not in and of itself going to necessarily lead to a degradation in the sound of the guitar.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@Lewy. ; That's great info. Thanks.

GTC · July 2019

My playing style is light fingerstyle (but not that light) and I do not have a dreadnaught

Using a 12-53 steel string set and with proper set-up adjustment of the nut, saddle height and truss rod - I usually achieve around .06" on low-E and 0.04" on high-E (top of fret to bottom of string) without any buzzes or deterioration in tone o rprojection (25.5" scale length).

A major dependency is neck angle - something normally expensive and difficult to alter. Although the height of the strings above the soundboard changes slightly with saddle height, the major factor is the fixed bridge height.

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@GTC ; Wow... that sounds like very slinky action! I assume the measurements that you quote are from the top of the fret to the underside of the string (at the 12th fret). Is that correct?

GTC · July 2019

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

@GTC ; Wow... that sounds like very slinky action! I assume the measurements that you quote are from the top of the fret to the underside of the string (at the 12th fret). Is that correct?

Yes - that is correct

Strat_a_tat_tat · July 2019

@GTC.. Thanks.

RandallFlagg · July 2019

The challenge I have with acoustic action is that I can get an action of say 6/64ths on the low E that sounds fine for strumming in standard tuning, even when quite heavy handed, but drop tune the low E to D and capo ant 2nd fret can rattle when pushed with a pick which sounds horrible, playing with fingers is fine but it will rattle with the pick when played hard.

Lewy · July 2019

RandallFlagg said:

The challenge I have with acoustic action is that I can get an action of say 6/64ths on the low E that sounds fine for strumming in standard tuning, even when quite heavy handed, but drop tune the low E to D and capo ant 2nd fret can rattle when pushed with a pick which sounds horrible, playing with fingers is fine but it will rattle with the pick when played hard.

Out of interest what kind of pick do you use? I find using a heavy pick with a lighter touch on the right hand gives the same projection as a light pick with a heavier touch, but I never get any rattles. Might be something to play around with.

RandallFlagg · July 2019

Lewy said:

RandallFlagg said:

The challenge I have with acoustic action is that I can get an action of say 6/64ths on the low E that sounds fine for strumming in standard tuning, even when quite heavy handed, but drop tune the low E to D and capo ant 2nd fret can rattle when pushed with a pick which sounds horrible, playing with fingers is fine but it will rattle with the pick when played hard.

Out of interest what kind of pick do you use? I find using a heavy pick with a lighter touch on the right hand gives the same projection as a light pick with a heavier touch, but I never get any rattles. Might be something to play around with.

I use a Gravity Thin 1.1. I don't know why Gravity call them thin as it's not particularly! After trying many many picks I have found this to have the best tone.

ESBlonde · August 2019

RandallFlagg said:

The challenge I have with acoustic action is that I can get an action of say 6/64ths on the low E that sounds fine for strumming in standard tuning, even when quite heavy handed, but drop tune the low E to D and capo ant 2nd fret can rattle when pushed with a pick which sounds horrible, playing with fingers is fine but it will rattle with the pick when played hard.

Interesting. Is it just the second fret? If you get rattle with a capo but not with barre chords, it suggests the placement of the capo is not optimal. Try nestling the capo right behing the fret. If its just the second fret it might suggest a bit of light fret fettling overall will resolve it.

thomasross20 · August 2019

Anybody know the action of some famous players?

thomasross20 · August 2019

Here are measurements I just made on my guitars.
The Larrivee is the one that feels easiest to play (Avalon feels great but action is slightly higher).
The nut feels a tad high on the Avalon and it generally has the highest measures (to the point where I might get the nut grooves filed and the saddle filed - by a tech).

Would you say these are ok?
I've noted string set used, too.
Also - no mention of what height at 1st fret is good..?
I'm going to up the Avalon to 12s so that I can use Orkney tuning and not have too little pressure.

Avalon (Daddario custom light 11s)

1st fret low E: 1mm

1st fret high E: 0.75mm

12th fret low E: 2.75mm (just below 0.11 inches)

12th fret high E: 2.25mm

Larrivee (martin custom light 11s)

1st fret low E: 0.85mm

1st fret high E: 0.75mm

12th fret low E: 2.4mm

12th fret high E: 2mm

Taylor (daddario 12s)

1st fret low E: 0.85mm

1st fret high E: 0.8mm

12th fret low E: 2.7mm

12th fret high E: 2.25mm

thomasross20 · August 2019

https://www.guitarrepairbench.com/acoustic-guitar-repairs/lower-saddle-action/
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html

stewmac recommended string heights:
https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Neck_Building_and_Repair_and_Setup/String_Action_Gauge_I-0670.html

Er yeah - best left with a tech....!!

thomasross20 · August 2019

Looks like TE has an incredibly low action:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/tommy-emmanuels-acoustic-action.1739777/

Lewy · August 2019

thomasross20 said:

Looks like TE has an incredibly low action:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/tommy-emmanuels-acoustic-action.1739777/

Yes, that’s very low indeed. Having said that, he’s always plugged in live so he doesn’t really need acoustic projection.

It would certainly be fun to have an acoustic set that low but I’d be paranoid that playing it would ruin me for paying anything with a higher action!

earwighoney · August 2019

One of my acoustics returned from the tech for a few repairs and he adjusted the relief and lowered the saddle. The string height at 12th Bass E is 2.25mm, High E is 1.25mm. I'm finding it to be a little too low for my liking, it's fine for playing fingerstyle with a very light touch but it's near enough impossible to play using fingerpicks without a huge amount of fret buzz.

sw67 · August 2019

My Gibson J-35 is 2.75mm. It could possibly be a tiny bit lower but as it sounds great I don't want to mess with it. There is a video on youtube of a J-35 at norms guitars that has 1/3 of the saddle height mine has to get a lower action and its the worst acoustic I have ever heard.

ToneControl · August 2019

earwighoney said:

One of my acoustics returned from the tech for a few repairs and he adjusted the relief and lowered the saddle. The string height at 12th Bass E is 2.25mm, High E is 1.25mm. I'm finding it to be a little too low for my liking, it's fine for playing fingerstyle with a very light touch but it's near enough impossible to play using fingerpicks without a huge amount of fret buzz.

2.3mm and 1.8mm I think works well

thomasross20 · August 2019

^^^ Close to my Larrivee.
I think I'll take the Avalon to a tech to see about a slightly lower nut and saddle.
And the Larrivee maybe get him to lower the saddle height a tad.

thomasross20 · August 2019

I forget in which thread we mentioned hygrometers but I went all out and bought 4!!
All +/-5 RH accuracy.

The readings are averaging out at:
67
60
64
57
-> average 62.

ToneControl · August 2019

mine are 51%, 56%, 59% this morning

thomasross20 · August 2019

I've got a de-humidifier... I might put it on in the hall (not direct in the room)... I think mine is a bit high and wonder how much that is contributing to slightly high action..

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